When, oh when, will the tide turn?

TheProdigalKittensReturn

Thanks, that's very well put.

TinselAngel

I think he does it on purpose in an attempt to avoid being pigeonholed.

I'd have thought "Marxist Libertarian" is an oxymoron.

Yes, good point kittens.

Again, it's an attempt to import American framing of politics into the UK. Libertarian and right are much more synonymous in the American political zeitgeist. Which also means that anyone coming from that perspective will be confused when they've been primed to expect an Ayn Rand adherent and get Brendan O'Neill instead.

I've seen people try to draw a distinction between 'liberal' and 'progressive' - Spiked would be liberal / libertarian but not progrossive / woke.

It does seem to fit those liberals / on the left who are kicking back against authoritarian woke culture.

Spiked is libertarian. The editor, Brendan O'Neill, describes himself as a 'Marxist Libertarian'. He previously worked on Spiked's predecessor: 'Living Marxism'.

I have no idea where this idea comes from that Spiked is right wing. Possibly from people who think that libertarian = right wing.

I read Spiked for a while assuming it was more or less leftist. I was shocked when I first started to see it described as right wing. But it seems a common POV.

One way in which I think a tide has mostly turned (if that's possible) is within feminism, with regards to platforming "helpful" transexuals.

Some of us have been arguing for a long time that platforming (and by doing so, centring) so called "gender critical transexuals" in feminism, excludes trans widows and other women from the very movement that was set up to support them. I think there is a growing acceptance amongst feminists that this is the case.

It's been a while since the major feminist organisations (I'm thinking Filia and WPUK) allowed this.

I certainly see this as progress!

(Still, at least it should mean an end to 'point of privilege' interruptions).

Going back to the 'dirtbag left' article, Marriott states 'In an interview with the right-wing online magazine Spiked...'. I don't consider Spiked Right Wing.

First I've heard of Chapo Trap House - wonder if they're the successors to The Young Turks, who already seem to be trapped in the downward spiral. TYT very much see themselves as progressives - from what I glean from the article, Chapo Trap House seem to be moving away from Progressivism / US-style liberalism and more towards old-school left wing class politics.

I like James Marriott but he’s got a little way to go on this journey. He is very smart but can’t quite let go of ‘be kind’ and ‘lefties are good people’ both of which lead to ‘TWAW because leftie blokes, who insist on my being kind, say so’

Where did this idea ever come from, anyway? I've never found that conservatives are actually less likely to be kind to people. Some are jerks of course but the proportion doesn't seem to be particularly different.

Just placemarking in caseemerjeannecomes back later to continue the discussion

They will be back once they have consulted with the rest of the group and have had a response formulated.

I’m more on the ‘lying and colluding in lies is not the same as being kind’ end of the spectrum.

Me too. "Reel Politik" that he admiringly refers to had members suspended from Twitter for getting into a nasty spat with gender critical women a few years ago and writing something like "Hang all T**Fs" on their bio.

Have they grown up? I doubt it.

Yes this is what Militant was like. Macho arseholes. James is too young to remember that or remember the tenor of socialism during the miners strike. It makes me realise how ancient I am - it’s very familiar to me and ancient history to him and others his age.

Dirtbag lefties sound like old school socialists of the sort you would have found in traditional working class communities across the country

for an example of this...you need look no further than the way that council business is conducted in Liverpool....under the leadership of old school Joe Anderson...and back in the dark days of Derek Hatton. It is almost a case of throwing rotten apples at each other across the chamber....with insults and name calling and personal vendetta.

curious article. I have never heard of the phenomenon or phrase dirtbag left before. Sounds like mostly a lot of men gleefully hurling abuse at other women and men in an immature manner. They don't come across in a good light.

If it had been dirtbag right, I guessed no-one would be surprised. The general assumption that those on the left are someway more morally sound than those on the right is part of the problem.

hated the U.S and its cultural hegemony

Dirtbag lefties sound like old school socialists of the sort you would have found in traditional working class communities across the country

Yes, the hard line militants have never been of the soft, kind contemporary version. It was always class war and personal recrimination.

i'm getting heartily fed up of the infiltration of American frames of reference and terminology into British culture. The irony of that is, of course, that the Hard, British Left has always hated the US and cultural hegemony.........and to think that much of the identity politics that Jeremy Corbyn now embraces & espouses is a direct American import.

I like James Marriott but he’s got a little way to go on this journey. He is very smart but can’t quite let go of ‘be kind’ and ‘lefties are good people’ both of which lead to ‘TWAW because leftie blokes, who insist on my being kind, say so’

I’m more on the ‘lying and colluding in lies is not the same as being kind’ end of the spectrum. Dirtbag lefties sound like old school socialists of the sort you would have found in traditional working class communities across the country.

TimeLady curious article. I have never heard of the phenomenon or phrase dirtbag left before.
Sounds like mostly a lot of men gleefully hurling abuse at other women and men in an immature manner. They don't come across in a good light.

Times today,
'Girl launches changing room privacy case'
(extract)
A 13-year-old girl who objects to sharing changing rooms with transgender pupils has been granted permission by the High Court to take landmark legal action against her local council over its schools policy.

She is seeking to quash guidance from Oxfordshire county council that transgender girls can use female toilets, changing rooms and dormitories on school residential trips, and take part in girls’ sport.

The teenager said this gives her “no right to privacy from the opposite sex”.

The legal action is the first of its kind and could have implications for hundreds of schools that have adopted similar guidelines.

The council “utterly refutes” concerns that children are being put at risk.

The girl’s mother said she was “astounded” that her daughter was having to" (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/girl-launches-changing-room-privacy-case-lhn9vjv7n?

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3888642-Times-23-Apr-2020-Girl-launches-changing-room-privacy-case

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3884089-Good-news-from-Safe-Schools-Alliance

W&E Committee minutes can be downloaded here

committees.parliament.uk/committee/328/women-and-equalities-committee

For the record, current members are

Caroline Nokes (Conservative, Romsey and Southampton North) (Chair)
Nickie Aiken (Conservative, Cities of London and Westminster)
Sara Britcliffe (Conservative, Hyndburn)
Angela Crawley (Scottish National Party, Lanark and Hamilton East)
Virginia Crosbie (Conservative, Ynys Môn)
Alex Davies-Jones (Labour, Pontypridd)
Rosie Duffield (Labour, Canterbury)
Peter Gibson (Conservative, Darlington)
Kim Johnson (Labour, Liverpool, Riverside)
Kate Osborne (Labour, Jarrow)
Nicola Richards (Conservative, West Bromwich East)

Pre-2019 election committee:

Mrs Maria Miller (Conservative, Basingstoke) (Chair)
Tonia Antoniazzi (Labour, Gower)
Sarah Champion (Labour, Rotherham)
Angela Crawley (Scottish National Party, Lanark and Hamilton East)
Philip Davies (Conservative, Shipley)
Vicky Ford (Conservative, Chelmsford)
Eddie Hughes (Conservative, Walsall North)
Stephanie Peacock (Labour, Barnsley East)
Jess Phillips (Labour, Birmingham Yardley)
Tulip Siddiq (Labour, Hampstead and Kilburn)
Anna Soubry (The Independent Group for Change, Broxtowe)

Looks like a fresh start.

And maybe if the government starts to recognise the issues with this ideology infiltrating government schools and NHS, there will be much less need for women being rebuked for being bad feminists for continuing to stand against the tide of ' being kind'. But then, I am an optimist.

And this one:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d91e02a0-84a9-11ea-b876-ef9d21d57c48?shareToken&wgu=270525_54264_15875725691575_8ea9739ab8&wgexpiry=1595348569&utm_source=planit&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_content=22278

And this one: www.gov.uk/government/speeches/minister-for-women-and-equalities-liz-truss-sets-out-priorities-to-women-and-equalities-select-committee?utm_source=780bc29e-99ee-4daf-95c2-179053415663&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate&fbclid=IwAR0sXvGf_T4UcD_rftg2DFDQw3kGQHIjmV-Es71ctsxRpJLu39s0FdRSkss

A big day indeed! A tide turning? Most definitely if children are at last going to be protected, and that women's economic empowerment is to be strengthened and the possibilities of what might come out of the said LGBT conference they want to hold. Let's see what emerges....

22/4/2020 James Kirkup Spectator
The importance of Liz Truss’s trans promise

(extract)
"Some people involved in the trans debate have been screaming for years now about this. They say that the result of successful lobbying by trans campaigners, groupthink among clinicians and lack of oversight by politicians intent on staying out of the trans minefield is that a significant number of children are being subjected to serious, possibly irreversible and possibly harmful, medical treatment – a situation that will one day be recognised as a national scandal.

I mention all this here to explain the context of what Liz Truss said to MPs today:

“Finally, which is not a direct issue concerning the Gender Recognition Act, but is relevant, making sure that the under 18s are protected from decisions that they could make, that are irreversible in the future. I believe strongly that adults should have the freedom to lead their lives as they see fit, but I think it’s very important that while people are still developing their decision-making capabilities that we protect them from making those irreversible decisions."

It’s worth unpacking the language here a bit (emphasis added). When Truss speaks of 'protecting' children from their decisions, that suggests a worldview far removed from the one that informs a great deal of policy and practice around children and gender. (continues)

First, a lot of the 'facts' thrown around the trans debate about juvenile self-harm are zombie stats generated by campaign groups, not objective experts. Second, the narrative that trans kids are at greater risk of self-harm generally ignores co-morbidity: a lot of the people concerned also suffer mental health problems; self-harm rates among gender-variant children may well be in line with those in the wider population of all children and adolescents with mental health problems – still too high and still something that should be addressed, but not something unique to the 'trans' group. Third, and probably most important, the 'if you’re a trans kid you’re going to kill yourself' narrative is irresponsible and potentially harmful in itself. It flies in the face of guidance from the Samaritans and is at odds with the accounts given by some clinicians working with trans children, who say that many such children are happy and robust.

Nonetheless, in the view of the people who promote that narrative, the issue of 'protecting' trans children is not, as Truss suggests, about the need to shield them from the harm that medical intervention could do. For campaigners, trans children need to be 'protected' from the harm that might befall them if those medical interventions are not carried out.

Liz Truss isn’t daft. She’s an experienced minister and policy wonk (she used to run a think tank…) who can master a brief. She knows this area well. She has not wandered into the debate about trans children by accident: those words were from her opening, scripted speech to the committee, not an off-the-cuff comment.

In other words, the cabinet minister responsible for trans policy has decided to enter the debate about trans children, and to take a side, by questioning the prevailing orthodoxy that has been constructed by campaign groups and some clinicians." (continues)
www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-importance-of-liz-truss-s-trans-promise

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3887986-James-Kirkup-The-importance-of-Liz-Truss-s-trans-promise