Julie Bindel - there-s-nothing-empowering-about-the-sex-work-on-onlyfans

They aren't being dickheads, Its a compliance test. They don't care what you want or like, they get off on pushing at your boundaries. They want to hear you say 'no' so they can ignore it and keep pushing til they find your breaking point.

I'm on OnlyFans. I'm not doing it because it's empowering. I'm doing it cos it's extra cash.

And no, I don't do anything involving shit, piss, rape, children, animals or torture. On my Fetlife profile I make it very clear what I like and don't like and what kink I cater to, not that that stops dickhead men from assuming they're the exception.

more links re Rachel Foux / Gold

I think this is the same woman yes?

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20140319121545/www.glastonburytantrictemple.co.uk/Tantra-Massage-Glastonbury-Somerset-SophiaRose.asp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20140319121545/www.glastonburytantrictemple.co.uk/Tantra-Massage-Glastonbury-Somerset-SophiaRose.asp

This time she is calling herself Sophia Rose

I

I am totally fed up of never talking about men on these threads. If a man wants emotional intimacy, they could make friends or get a counsellor. They don't need a prostitute.

You suggest that this man who seeks intimacy would be better off seeing a counsellor.

I think this is a reasonable suggestion and in response I would like to take a look at some of the therapists that this man might find should he decide to take up your suggestion.

There are so many therapists to choose from

Let’s start with Rachel Foux aka Rachel Gold who can be seen alongside a number of “experts” in sexual health / sexual medicine / sexual therapy (some with conventional qualifications and some with dodgy / made up qualifications and some with both) in the now defunct website of the British Association of Sexual Educators or BASE, a website I have posted about before that is worthy of significant scrutiny.

Ms Gold / Foux was on the board of BASE and her qualifications / accreditations are listed thus

Rachel Foux BA (hons) BASRT (Assoc), MAC, APPPAH
source: (scroll down)

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20130427065018/www.baseuk.org/static.aspx?pg=AdvisoryBoard&m=aboutus" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20130427065018/www.baseuk.org/static.aspx?pg=AdvisoryBoard&m=aboutus

According to an archived page of one of her now defunct websites (there are a few of these) Foux / Gold was a founding member of BASE
Source: (scroll down)

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20110812043000/www.householdcompanion.com/About-Us-Rachel-Foux.asp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20110812043000/www.householdcompanion.com/About-Us-Rachel-Foux.asp

Apart from Ms Foux / Gold’s conventional qualifications her interest in less conventional forms of therapy are indicated in her personal website that contains the following text (emphasis mine):

"Having spent more than two decades training in a wide range of therapeutic modalities that support sexual health and wellbeing, I am confident that my method of sex and relationship coaching, is the most impactful and fastest approach to reawakening sexual intimacy and pleasure. I am deeply grateful for the many inspiring and wise teachers and healers that have encouraged me and influenced my work. My extensive professional training has included individual and relationship counselling, psychosexual therapy, coaching skills, alongside a portfolio of massage, natural health & healing, shamanism, vibrational medicine and yoga qualifications.

My personal sexual healing journey has included an immersion into tantric and Yogic traditions, for which I continue to be an avid student. I consider myself to be an Intuitive practitioner, profoundly inspired by the natural world, especially the magnificence of the sea and the forest. I love my work and feel immensely proud to be part of a new wave of sexual healers, that can offer clients both professional and leading edge services that really do transform lives."

source:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200426081127/www.rachelgold.co.uk/rachelgold-sextherapist.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200426081127/www.rachelgold.co.uk/rachelgold-sextherapist.php

Ms Foux / Gold describes her services further on her “how I work” page that includes the following text (emphasis mine):

"Somatic Sex Coaching
I am passionate advocate of somatic style sex coaching, which in simple terms, means sex coaching that involves some form of body-orientated therapeutic touch. I sincerely believe that somatic coaching offers an experience beyond what is generally possible in traditional sex and relationship therapy, as it involves body-touch or body-based experiential learning, rather than just talking and understanding issues.
Recent neuroscience research has shown that sex coaching that incorporates some form of hands-on coaching, results in true transformation, rather than just gaining an understanding of your patterns which does not always lead to lasting change. Trauma and emotional wounds can be locked into the body and this requires gentle encouragement, often in the form of touch, to release these memories and begin the healing process.

All my coaching sessions incorporate an element of somatic coaching, although this is always discussed in detail and full consent gained, at the beginning of every session. Somatic coaching could be anything from teaching a couple how to hug, to exploration of the senses, to breathing practices that enhance your future love making.
All somatic experiences that I facilitate, are strictly boundaried and never reciprocal. All touch happens only from me to my client and is included in the session for the purpose of education and healing.”

source:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180902180401/rachelgold.co.uk/sex-courses.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180902180401/rachelgold.co.uk/sex-courses.php

Please note the following from the above page

I. She uses touch to work with the body, although states that this is a one way thing (she touches the client and not the other way round
2 She claims to be able to recover traumatic memories that are locked in the body. This is an extremely common claim from these kinds of practitioners. I have serious concerns about how such practices can lead to false memories and false allegations of sexual abuse
3 She states “I abide by the professional ethics of the Association of Somatic and Integrative Sexologists.”

This last statement is immensely concerning as the Association of Somatic and Integrative Sexologists is an unusual and concerning organisation with very strong associations, via the people involved, with the paedophile Deer Tribe cult.
source: (via the wayBack machine)
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20180909031732/www.the-asis.org/board" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20180909031732/www.the-asis.org/board

A hint that Ms Foux / Gold may have rather flexible boundaries in relation to her services can be found via this fascinating website for the Glastonbury Tantric Temple, that features many “healers” involved with the Deer Tribe and with tantric / kundalini yoga cults.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20130718075613/www.glastonburytantrictemple.co.uk/Tantra-BodySexCoaching-Bristol-Somerset-RachelGold.asp" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20130718075613/www.glastonburytantrictemple.co.uk/Tantra-BodySexCoaching-Bristol-Somerset-RachelGold.asp

Like many interesting sex therapists, psychotherapists and others who exist in this liminal space somewhere between a sex worker and a therapist Ms Foux has been promoted on BBC Women’s Hour, in fact she has a significant media presence.

I will post more "therapists" later

This raises an important issue that most people unfamiliar with the sex industry often fail to understand; for the most successful earners sex is not the primary commodity, the primary commodity is intimacy, or the illusion of intimacy

This is just the "lonely man" narrative (see also: dad paying for sex for disabled son; man in his 60s who has been long term single)

I don't buy it that these men don't realise they are paying the woman to give an illusion of giving a shit. They know the women don't care, but they would rather get their orgasm with some plausible deniability than face up to the fact they are fucking someone who doesn't want to fuck them.

I am totally fed up of never talking about men on these threads. If a man wants emotional intimacy, they could make friends or get a counsellor. They don't need a prostitute.

And what about the multitude of married/in a relationship man who use these "courtesans"? Maybe they should be focussing on intimacy in their marriage.

Yes. It is so bleak to see this. It is like the fifties, but where women have less respect and less value than my mother had, while being told that now we are all equal and women have so much power. The ultimate in gaslighting.

I despair at the world my daughters are going out into.

It's incredibly depressing to see young women being socialized to see their ability to give men erections as the primary measure of their value.

The responses are so depressing. Very young women with their breasts out, or their bums, calling Julie “Karen”.
I despair at the world my daughters are going out into.

Yes notbad excellent post.

Completely agree.

Again, suggesting that people should revise their entire analysis of how the sex industry works because there are some cults that use sex as a recruiting tool is really very silly.

Yes notbad excellent post.

Other people not sharing your hyperfocus on cults doesn't mean that they're seeing the situation incorrectly. I'd suggest that it more likely means that you're seeing everything through a very narrow and specific lens, and that it's unreasonable to expect everyone else to adopt that same lens.

I do not expect anyone else to "adopt the same lens".

People are very welcome to hold different views and disagree.

I value debates where people hold a variety of viewpoints and are open to changing their views conditional on new insights and data.

I am not trying to persuade people to think the same things as I think.

I am opposed to debates where people are no-platformed and people refuse to consider new data and different ideas. These are not debates, they are just people repeating cerished beliefs based on confimration bias.

I simply would like readers to keep an open mind and consider their positions as provisional, as this is an analytic stance, a scientific stance, a rationalist stance and it should be a feminist stance surely?

Feel free to carry on as you were :)

I'm off out but may post later

Other people not sharing your hyperfocus on cults doesn't mean that they're seeing the situation incorrectly. I'd suggest that it more likely means that you're seeing everything through a very narrow and specific lens, and that it's unreasonable to expect everyone else to adopt that same lens.

I realize that trying to raise awareness of cults is probably your main focus, hoodathunkit, but suggesting that we suspend feminist analysis of the power dynamics at work in the sex industry because some of the people who some punters are paying for sex may be cult recruiters is a bit much.

I am not asking you to suspend feminist analysis of anything

really I'm not

I am inviting you to consider that things may be a little more nuanced and complex than you claim they are

I am suggesting that what you think is an analysis might not be as analytical as you imagine

The vast majority of the sex industry does not operate on that model.

In countries where the Nordic model operates there are "tantric temples" flourishing everywhere

They are exploitative in a very different way to the way that you understand exploitation to work.

The "temples" are staffed by men and women. The clients / punters are men and women.

They claim to be offering therapeutic and spiritual services. They typically have notices on their websites and premises stating "we do not provide sexual services".

These notices are as truthful as the ones you find in massage parlours stating the same thing and asking clients to refrain from asking for "extras".

I compleltely understand the provisional nature of my understanding of these issues.

I am always open to learning more about any issue at all and thus to changing my mind.

I believe that any truly analytical approach, whether feminst or not, should always be open to new data. Othewise it isn't really an analysis is it?

I realize that trying to raise awareness of cults is probably your main focus, hoodathunkit, but suggesting that we suspend feminist analysis of the power dynamics at work in the sex industry because some of the people who some punters are paying for sex may be cult recruiters is a bit much. The vast majority of the sex industry does not operate on that model.

Sure, on the face of it I don't think it really tells us one way or another what we should think about the concept of sex as work, or how we should treat it in terms of social policy. Personally I think for the individuals involved it's psychologically damaging, though not necessarily more so than other sexual acts that we leave up to people to choose. That may impact what people are thinking when they talk about people being mentally healthy.

I think it's just a rabbit hole though to get too caught up in arguing about whether there are some people who do well. There have always been a few people who do, it's not really the issue.

I agree with this

She has a list of men who pay to use her body as a wank sock.

I would like to address this claim, which is often made here on mumsnet, in relation to prostitution. The claim that men who buy sex are using women as “wank socks” or “fuck holes”.

A very obvious thing that many with entrenched views in this debate completely miss is that vary often the women who do well, at least in my experience, are the women who combine natural, conventional beauty with an approachable, “girl next door” vibe. This was illustrated quite well in the Nudes4Sale documentary where the young woman who reported making obscene amounts of money, combined conventional beauty with a friendly, chatty nature. She also spent most of her time replying to texts and emails from “fans” thus providing an illusion of intimacy.

Another young woman on the programme had clearly “had some work done", lip filler, etc. and had a much more pornified look and vibe. This young woman was earning far less than the girl next door type, as one might expect.

This raises an important issue that most people unfamiliar with the sex industry often fail to understand; for the most successful earners sex is not the primary commodity, the primary commodity is intimacy, or the illusion of intimacy. Sex is merely the vehicle for the “intimacy” to be provided.

Obviously this is not the case with punters who pay a drug addicted, desperate woman £5 for a blow job. It is not the issue for a man who, even if he can afford to pay an escort who either genuinely enjoys his/her work (a minority do IME) or who possesses sufficient acting skills as to be convincing in this respect, chooses instead to pay a desperate and vulnerable person to engage in sexual acts they find disgusting and traumatic.

Different men want different experiences, some enjoy the suffering of a desperate person via a process of sexual sadism. Some are indifferent as to whether the sex worker suffers providing they can stick it in a hole and obtain relief for their urges. Most men who buy sex on the streets probably fall into these categories.

However when you start to look at the dynamics and relating between escorts / courtesans and higher paid sex workers the dynamics are completely different.

Highly paid sex workers such as escorts and courtesans very often use skills of persuasion, sometimes including NLP and hypnotism, in order to persuade clients that they have a genuine emotional connections with one another.

Some criminal cults operate training courses where they train men and women in sexual skills, massage skills, erotic dance, pole dance, seduction skills, hypnosis, NLP, persuasion skills and other skills (for example the covert administration of drugs).

These schools now operate all over the world and are often marketed as “empowerment” courses, teaching men and women sexual secrets / tantric massage etc.

This proliferation of pseudo-academic training courses that teach people how to use sex to manipulate others raises an important question about who exactly is the exploited party and who is the exploiter?

The point I am making is that while prostitution is undoubtably exploitative in many cases, the nature of the exploitation can be a complex and nuanced thing depending on the specific situation and the context.

Just an example; a very lonely, vulnerable with multiple disabilities who has never had a sexual experience with another person attends one of Tuppy Owens’ various “empowering” events and as a result, is persuaded to pay a male or female sex worker to help her learn how to have sex. That sex worker (who may be male or female) seems happy and enthusiastic about helping people to enjoy fulfilling sex lives and gives no impression of being coerced or trafficked. However the sex worker belongs to a criminal cult that uses sex and sex workers to recruit new members and then exploit them sexually, financially and in various other ways.

In this situation who is the exploited person and who is the exploiter?

If readers are interested in learning about how some of the cultic sex workers operate they can watch a documentary (NSFW obviously) on Channel 5 here that includes extensive interviews and footage showing some male sex workers who provide services to women. I have not watched this for a while but 2 of the sex workers featured are involved with extremely dangerous cults, one is very involved in the paedophile cult the Deer Tribe, the other I will post more about soon

www.my5.tv/the-sex-business/season-2/episode-3

Yeah. I think that maybe it's inevitable though so long as sex is treated transactionally in general. Once a lot of people accept that, it's logical that it can be monetised and it's a losing battle to oppose that without changing the view of it as transactional.

I think that regardless of what you think about any of the individuals involved the normalization of prostitution is bad for society in very obvious ways. It only takes spending some time in a place where there's an active red light district to realize that.

I'm not really up for judging individuals I know little about. I think it's enough to look at the picture overall to say, I think this is damaging, for society, for individuals.

Looking at what motivates individuals is useful in understanding how they get to a particular place, or in trying to figure out how to prevent some situation, but two people in a similar place may have totally different personal stories. One may be completely personally culpable, quite happy to screw over other people. Another may be conditioned by circumstances that mean they aren't really making anything like a free decision. Most people probably have some limitations and some culpability.

NotBadConsidering

I’ve cut and pasted your post for future use

Me too.

Great post notbadconsidering

Another thing is: the sex industry is globalised now. Women are trafficked from every corner of the earth to work in it for less and less money - simple supply and demand. So while the pimp lobby has succeeded in normalising prostitution in a way it never has before, it is surely less likely than ever that you will get rich from it unless you do extreme stuff? The competition is huge.

@NotBadConsidering

I’ve cut and pasted your post for future use as it’s 100% on point and expresses everything I feel about the sex industry in a clear and coherent way.

"I thought I might get a better class of perv if I signed up to OnlyFans"

Pretty sure there isn't a "better class" of perv.

notbad that is a brilliant brilliant post

That is not my opinion at all btw. I think a rocky road has lead these women to this path. There are a lot of factors involved in why women think that this is a valid choice. Mostly it's drugs, which they take because they've been fucked over by men

Sometimes it is because they need to feel validated by men

Not buying that. There always has to be an excuse for women's behaviour hasn't there?

If KatesMott's friend is genuinely the happy hooker Kate is making her out to be I have as much contempt for her as I have for her punters