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Robert Webb in the Times

158 replies

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 12/04/2020 09:33

Interesting interview with Robert Webb in the Times. I had no idea he'd been so ill.
He talks about the pile on he got for criticising Mermaids last year and whether he regrets it (no) and says that you can't acknowledge that there are competing rights without being framed as a bigot.
He also says it had real life professional consequences (which I see one of our monitors is already gloating about on twitter)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d63efd46-7982-11ea-b535-542bda4e2a5f?shareToken

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 15/04/2021 14:17

We still had to (have to) be on guard all the time. Every new care situation (camp, sports, babysitter, friends' parents) had to get a briefing. We had to check every room for jerks. Because being misgendered, or forced to explain yourself is traumatic for a young kid.

Not specifically about this child; I want to make a more general observation based on how I see that statement.

So a child that might have been uncomfortable with people commenting on her/his unusual choice of clothes is now in the even more difficult situation of being uncomfortable when anyone finds out her/his sex. All they’ve done is to replace one uncomfortable situation with another.

My personal opinion is that a child would have had a better learning experience if she/he had parents who fully supported her/him in their clothing and activity choices and intervened strongly on behalf of their child whenever anyone interfered or bullied them.

SunsetBeetch · 15/04/2021 14:15

@Helmetbymidnight

It sounds like Jesse Thorn couldn't deal with the idea of having an effeminate son and was more comfortable with the special status of being parent to a trans child

i think its more that he genuinely believes - and so do a lot of people- that effeminate men ARE women

Which is also pretty much the opposite of progressive, of course.

How the hell did we get to this point? We were making so much progress.

andyoldlabour · 15/04/2021 14:14

When I started work back in the seventies, there was a highly intelligent bloke in my office, who everyone thought was gay, simply because of the way he spoke. He wasn't, he had girlfriends, but he had been brought up by two aunts from a very early age after his parents tragically died, so his mannerisms were not what you would call "BLOKEY".
I daresay, if he had been a youngster at school in these times, then there may well have been a move to consider him "trans".

Helmetbymidnight · 15/04/2021 14:11

It says so much more about the parents than the child

totally agree. kindergarden, fgs!

Helmetbymidnight · 15/04/2021 14:10

It sounds like Jesse Thorn couldn't deal with the idea of having an effeminate son and was more comfortable with the special status of being parent to a trans child

i think its more that he genuinely believes - and so do a lot of people- that effeminate men ARE women

AbsintheFriends · 15/04/2021 13:59

I do think it could be used by some to signal how "progressive" they are

I totally agree, but it actually screams the opposite. It sounds like Jesse Thorn couldn't deal with the idea of having an effeminate son and was more comfortable with the special status of being parent to a trans child. Everything in this thread is about justification and reverse-engineering evidence to support their decisions. It says so much more about the parents than the child.

IvyTwines2 · 15/04/2021 13:52

@andyoldlabour

Someone pointed out on the Jesse Thorn Twitter thread, that having a trans child is the latest fashion accessory. I fully agree with that analogy.
I think if Absolutely Fabulous was being made today, Edina would be desperate for Saffy to be trans.
Datun · 15/04/2021 13:45

Some girls have penises."

"I'm a girl with a penis."

"Better chop it off then."

Ah yes... I get it now...

The inconsistency doesn't seem a bother, does it.

SunsetBeetch · 15/04/2021 13:40

andyoldlabour I do think it could be used by some to signal how "progressive" they are. Very bizarre to talk about girls having penises etc to a child of that age. Children are very pliable. I hope to god they are genuinely doing the best for their child, but it does worry me a lot.

andyoldlabour · 15/04/2021 12:55

Someone pointed out on the Jesse Thorn Twitter thread, that having a trans child is the latest fashion accessory.
I fully agree with that analogy.

Sophoclesthefox · 15/04/2021 12:54

If someone told me a story that started with a conversation with a toddler in the bath about the configuration of an adult friend’s genitals, my first reaction would not be to shower that person with praise for their bravery and insight.

transbadger · 15/04/2021 12:40

@NecessaryScene1

my wife mentioned that not all girls have vaginas and not all boys have penises.

When she enters puberty, she'll start taking a pill that prevents testosterone from changing her body.

Okay, maybe my mind isn't highly trained enough, but if in this universe girls can have penises, then why shouldn't those girls go through a natural "girl with penis" puberty?

Why are the girls with penises and boys with vaginas being singled out for unproven medical treatment?

"Some girls have penises."

"I'm a girl with a penis."

"Better chop it off then."

Ah yes... I get it now...

🦡🌈🤍

NecessaryScene1 · 15/04/2021 12:35

my wife mentioned that not all girls have vaginas and not all boys have penises.

When she enters puberty, she'll start taking a pill that prevents testosterone from changing her body.

Okay, maybe my mind isn't highly trained enough, but if in this universe girls can have penises, then why shouldn't those girls go through a natural "girl with penis" puberty?

Why are the girls with penises and boys with vaginas being singled out for unproven medical treatment?

Datun · 15/04/2021 12:20

@Helmetbymidnight

And yes, no-one is buying it.

But 55 k people liked it...

I know. Depressing. But they stand as much chance as effectively articulating why, as he does.

Which is zero.

Helmetbymidnight · 15/04/2021 12:15

And yes, no-one is buying it.

But 55 k people liked it...

transbadger · 15/04/2021 12:14

Understanding whether you are a boy or a girl and that this is an immutable state is actually a developmental stage in childhood.

People like Jesse Thorn are literally disrupting their child's development.

Lumene · 15/04/2021 12:11

Robert Webb comes across as thoughtful, considered and self-effacing.

Owen Jones... does not.

Datun · 15/04/2021 12:11

This response says it all.

If I'm reading correctly, girl is defined by not liking haircuts, liking Baloo in a hula skirt, a pink and purple My Little Pony dress, and saying "I'm a girl with a penis" in response to the mother's prompting.

Jesus. He's not an unintelligent man. Can't he see what is as clear as day to everyone else?

CrossPurposes · 15/04/2021 12:10

Thorn's child was so young that they wanted their new name to be Grease but somehow the child's parents knew they meant Grace. I wonder what else they have chosen to interpret for the child...

transbadger · 15/04/2021 12:04

@nauticant

They're a bucket of iced water over his gaslighty thread. A joy to read.

Oh it's working now! What a joy!

This tweet of his made me laugh life crazy:

We went to learn about gender and kids - I mean I'm from San Francisco, grew up with a trans neighbor. My wife went to Sarah Lawrence.

Wonderful stuff. Beyond satire.

🦡🌈🤍

Datun · 15/04/2021 12:04

And yes, no-one is buying it.

The tweets from this man are not coming across as anything other than self serving. Everyone sees it.

Datun · 15/04/2021 12:03

Are we absolutely certain this child is real?

It's all rather glib.

SunsetBeetch · 15/04/2021 12:02

Oh, cross post with nauticant

SunsetBeetch · 15/04/2021 12:01

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

This thread by Thorn is illuminating,:

twitter.com/JesseThorn/status/1377287133921116160?s=19

Excerpts:

When she started kindergarten, my wife was bathing her. An adult friend of ours had just come out as trans, and my wife mentioned that not all girls have vaginas and not all boys have penises.

Why would you tell your small child that?! Why?!

Talking to trans friends, I learned why it's so important to clearly tell kids that private parts don't determine gender. Little kids often don't know what "trans" is, so they just assume... well... that they're broken. Give kids some language and they can tell you who they are.

She socially transitioned in kindergarten. She had girl play clothes already that she wore at home when she felt like it, but my wife took her to Target to pick out some clothes. She chose a pink and purple My Little Pony dress.

We still had to (have to) be on guard all the time. Every new care situation (camp, sports, babysitter, friends' parents) had to get a briefing. We had to check every room for jerks. Because being misgendered, or forced to explain yourself is traumatic for a young kid.

When she enters puberty, she'll start taking a pill that prevents testosterone from changing her body. This treatment is safe and reversible, and is also used for kids with "precocious puberty" (puberty that starts too early).

Trans kids take hormone blockers because while stated gender identities are stable starting from the time kids can express them, a ten or eleven-year-old's brain is still growing by leaps and bounds. So long-term decisions about bodies are postponed a bit.

When our kid is in her teens, she'll decide how she feels about her body. She can do nothing and have a "boy's" puberty. She can take hormones and go through a "girl's" puberty. When she's a young adult, she can (if she choses) have surgical interventions.

Oof he's getting a lot of pushback there. More so than arse pats, by the looks of it.
nauticant · 15/04/2021 11:53

They're a bucket of iced water over his gaslighty thread. A joy to read.