Do you find the term/meme 'Karen' an insult?

The different standards is the assumption that any, middle aged, white woman who complains about poor service is a "Karen"

A "Karen" isn't even aggressive- it's the simple act of complaining, which might or might not be justified, which triggers the labelling.

I'm not sure that the issue is that men and women are being held to to different standards. Men who are rude and aggressive like that are discussed by workers, and they are called names. No one likes them.

You are less likely to see them in certain types of retail settings though, like supermarkets, mainly because shopping in those setting is substantially dominated by women.

If someone is bordering on aggressive then I'd consider them to be a bully

I agree with you. He is a bully but he gets away with it because he's a tall, older, authoritative-sounding bloke. I don't excuse any of this behaviour, I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of an arsey customer so I'm never going to be one of those people. It's just frustrating that men and women are held to such different standards.

twoHopes
If someone is bordering on aggressive then I'd consider them to be a bully.

Being assertive doesn't mean bordering on aggressive and I think it's a sad sign that some in society would deem that acceptable conduct in men because you're right in saying bordering on aggressive behaviour from a woman wouldn't be accepted.

Singasonga
Nobody has said anyone shouldn't complain to a manager if there's something wrong. Men and women who do that reasonable are absolutely fine.

There's a certain type of arsehole who use complaining to the manager as a pathetic attempt to engage in power play, usually with service staff and shop assistants they consider to be little plebs to them, and it's good that behaviour is called out. It doesn't need to be through a silly 'karen' name, but it's unpleasant behaviour that should be rightly ridiculed from men and women.

However, I'm inclined to say that (certainly from my own experience) there are plenty of 'Karens' out there and they really do love complaining to the manager

Lazy, stupid, stereotyping.

My husband does not put up with poor service and complains about it. He's a white , late middle aged, solicitor. As a litigator specialising in construction work it is part of his job basically. My brother-in- law is even more vociferous. He's slightly older and a highly skilled engineer. My sisters-in- law (one of whom is called Karen) take no nonsense from anyone either.

Bet you have no names to call my husband and brother-in- law. I suppose there is always "gammon" but personally I treat anyone using it and "Karen" with the contempt they deserve.

Icecreamwaffles you've proved nothing there! There are lazy men - when that comment is used it usually refers to what they do when not working for a start, and helpless women - a hell of a lot more than there are women called Karen who like complaining. So your judgement makes no sense.

My BIL likes to complain to the manager if he thinks he's not getting what he paid for, IceCreamWaffles. He's a white, middle aged, highly educated medical consultant. What fun stereotype name do you have for him?

Actually, I wholeheartedly agree with you that a lot of stereotypes are innacurate and unfair. The the 'lazy husband' (more men than women work full time!), the 'helpless woman' etc. All damaging and untruthful stereotypes.

However, I'm inclined to say that (certainly from my own experience) there are plenty of 'Karens' out there and they really do love complaining to the manager.

People don't like assertive women, we know this and have known it for decades. I've seen my dad complaining to managers numerous times and he's very assertive, bordering on aggressive. But he doesn't get called names, people respect him for it. If my mum behaved like that she'd be called a bitch, a cow or a nasty woman.

What's concerning is that the prevalence of this stereotype would suggest that it's an extremely common occurrence.
I don't think that is a legitimate conclusion to draw from the prevalence of a stereotype. The fact that there have been persistent stereotypes of, for example, black people or Jewish people does not mean that these were drawn from a large sample of black or Jewish people. In fact it can say more about the dominant group and their success in perpetuating the stereotype, and how willing others are to believe the worst of a certain group.

Women like that can be bloody awful but cashiers and waitresses don't get walked to their car or go home in pairs or call the police because of Karens. It's always terrifying men who stalk them on social media, wait around outside their workplace, stare at their name badge and use their name inappropriately (I disapprove of name badges!) or just shout at, threaten or rob. No memes for them though.

You know what sticks with you after a long shift working with the public? Not some annoying entitled woman. Being terrified sticks with you. Being hurt sticks with you. Being sexually harassed sticks with you. No memes for that though.

Whilst I agree that stalking women is undoubtedly worse, I don't think we can so readily dismiss female bullying and intimidation, especially when the power dynamic portrayed here is typically that of a white, privileged, middle class woman bullying either a younger woman or somebody of a lower socio-economic status in a service role - perhaps a BAME individual. Dismissing this is a bit like dismissing sexual assault because it's not as bad as murder or rape.

They're quite different scenarios in my mind. Being stared at on the way to the car is horrible, but on the flipside there is no question as to who is the perpetrator there. However, when 'Karen' complains to the manager the dynamic is different. The customer is always right, and we have a confident woman going up against a victim who is likely younger and may feel intimidated or fear for her job, hence very possibly being reticent to defend herself and maybe accepting the blame - what has Karen to lose from this apart from some misplaced pride?

I can imagine the manager siding with Karen in many instances. We've all seen it before. Waitresses are easily replaced but an angry customer can seriously damage a business's reputation. People like Karen know how to complain and they do it often. It's unreasonable to use the name 'Karen', but we all know somebody like her. Once she starts making a scene the manager will want to placate her, and he certainly won't want the fallout of a slew of bad reviews on Trustpilot/JustEat/Google reviews etc. If it doesn't affect the business's reputation then the manager still likely has to explain the situation to the owners.

Sadly, after an encounter with Karen, the waitress may not be walked to her car. She'll walk to it on her own after having been fired and she won't be coming back. Her terror won't be of somebody using her name inappropriately, it'll be of how to keep a roof over her head and feed her children.

What's concerning is that the prevalence of this stereotype would suggest that it's an extremely common occurrence.

I was one of very few posters on an AIBU thread a couple of years ago who said "Your Mum" jokes were not funny, rather they were stupid, lazy, sexist and ageist.

There aren't "your Dad" jokes beyond possibly "Dad dancing" and even there it's sort of lost its viciousness- most people now think, well why not enjoy dancing even if you're terrible at it.

MightyMike
Nish Kumar is anything but funny, one of the new breed of so called comedians.
Merrymouse gave an excellent link to the "Karen" effect, where there wasw a dictionary definition, or rather a lot of definitions.
They were indeed misogynistic, ageist and also racist, because if you think us middle aged men get it bad, then middle aged, white women get it worse.

Nish Kumar- now that is interesting. He took over from Miles Jupp on the News Quiz. Several posters on Radio Addicts said they didn't like him because he is a smug git. They were accused by another poster of being racist.

Watched the Mash Report last night and the wokey blokey Nish seems to really hate women of a certain demographic, really laying into the Karen's and Your Mum on Facebook. It was because of this thread I sat up and noticed just how misogynist it all was.

How can you be for inclusiveness and equal rights (as the Mash Report pretends to be) when you are derisery and sneering contempt at a whole section of society, ie middle aged women.

It is often said by people to dismiss an entire group of people (white, middle-aged women often) when those people at the same time pretend to fight the exclusion of others, and supposedly stand for equality, etc.

That hits the nail on the head.

But a few months ago I saw a textbook Karen situation where a middle aged woman, similar hair cut to the memes

No you didn't. You saw one particular person behaving rudely and decided it fitted with a stupid meme invented to assist the hard of thinking taxing their limited brain power.

Who is the most tedious person at work? Karen, of course! Can't wait for a world with no Karens!

Yes. Not only in itself, but also about the sheer hypocrisy that is often involved in the use of it.

It is often said by people to dismiss an entire group of people (white, middle-aged women often) when those people at the same time pretend to fight the exclusion of others, and supposedly stand for equality, etc.

ooooh this convo I can get on board with!!

Even if we were to set aside this neantherthal view of older people, why is there no male equivalent?

I always found the male population that was rude in shops in a similar way tended to be professional men, and less attached to a particular age group. The word used for them was typically some variation on "prick".

Goosefoot
That's how I always understood the reference too.
It wasn't saying "get in your box because you're a woman so you should smile nicely and accept crap service" and more an observation that a particular group of people shared similar behaviour traits, usually throwing their weight around in a bid to get what they want.

I don't like the expression 'karen', but a few months ago I saw a textbook Karen situation where a middle aged woman, similar hair cut to the memes had opened a pack of tights but wanted to return them along with other items missing tags. The poor 18-20 year old shop assistant very politely and reasonably said it's not possible. The customer argued and argued and demanded to see managers, meanwhile the queue was building full of people smiling at the assistants and rolling their eyes at the customer. Everything about the interaction was horrible and snacked of 'you are a lowly shop assistant and I have power as the customer'.

Funnily enough, whilst that customer was waiting for the manager, every customer in the queue made a point of praising the shop assistants for their impeccable handling of the situation, wonderful service and telling them they didn't have to apologise for the wait as it was absolutely not their fault. I loved the solidarity.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/14/social-distance-shaming-necessary-coronavirus

It's used at the end of this article, with a link to the urban dictionary definition, which makes it clear that it means a middle aged mother. Perhaps once upon a time it specifically meant a white woman berating a black woman, but there is no mention of race in the definition linked by the Guardian.

The implication is clear - it's fine to ignore somebody as long as they are a woman with children, and women, don't make a fuss, you don't want to be a 'Karen'.

It's the new 'uppity', except that lefty people feel safe using it too.

The memes may as well say "Karen's getting above her station again" because that's exactly what they're meant to portray - a woman who needs stamping back down in place.
Perfectly put MoltenLasagne.