Do you find the term/meme 'Karen' an insult?

Very much so

@Goosefoot I think the "mistake" the women in that photo were making was being out together having a good laugh by the look of it and entirely forgetting that if you're not young and/or in perfect shape you are supposed to be invisible

Yep

No, the irony is that after 8 pages you can still write that post. The point has sailed completely over your head

Isn't dave the male equivalent?

The irony being that the tellers off are probably the type of women that the Karen meme is all about!

No, the irony is that after 8 pages you can still write that post. The point has sailed completely over your head.

think you and I have heard it used in the same context, but be careful explaining how you've seen or heard it used. You may get told off for it.

The irony being that the tellers off are probably the type of women that the Karen meme is all about! Not that I would ever call them that. We're talking about the permanently offended and entitled type who want everything their way and are happy to bully to achieve it (awaits proof).

You weren't talking about people in general- you were referring to a particular type of female person.
I was giving an example of the sort of situation that matches how I've heard it used. As in 'i haven't heard Karen being used to refer to any woman who challenges poor service (though some here have) I have heard it use to describe a woman displaying this sort of behaviour'.

Last time I checked outlining when you've seen or heard something doesn't equal agreeing with it.

It would be fairly pointless discussing how I've heard the word Karen used by giving an example of a man... Because it isn't used for men. When men display that type of behaviour they tend to rightly be viewed as an unreasonable arsehole.

IceCreamWaffles I think you and I have heard it used in the same context, but be careful explaining how you've seen or heard it used. You may get told off for it.

I do agree with this but then arguably it's hypocritical to stereotype men of a certain age and class - e.g. male, pale, and stale

I hate that expression. I never use it.

I've only ever heard it used to describe a certain group of women who seek to power play with retail/service staff, throw their weight around when they're being unreasonable. Anything that isn't them getting their own way is enough for them to huff and puff about apparently poor service because they're the big important customer who is always right (anecdotally a similar behaviour and attitude is exhibited by people who come to parents' evenings, demand free private tuition for the child who isn't working in class and then resort to informing teachers that "I pay your wages").

This was my understanding of it. I think the issue we're experiencing is that people have different definitions/interpretations if it - i.e. thinking it's about women being admonished for standing up for themselves (as opposed to being bullies).

It's not calling out the behaviour if you only use a woman of a certain age and class to personify it. It's lazy stereotyping, as has been pointed out countless times.

I'm struggling with cognitive dissonance a bit here! I do agree with this but then arguably it's hypocritical to stereotype men of a certain age and class - e.g. male, pale, and stale. And all the talk of 'straight white males' which is much more prolific than the Karen thing (and arguably is simultaneously racist, sexist, and discriminating against sexual orientation - all protected characteristics).

I haven't said I only notice that behaviour in only women

Why then post a long, detailed example of "Karen" behaviour? You weren't talking about people in general- you were referring to a particular type of female person.

I dislike the behaviour in men and women, and sadly there's a minority of people who do throw their weight around to try and bully staff into giving them their own way

But only women in a certain demographic deserve a special name for it?

And as Chickpeees says - is it used against women who rightly stand up for themselves and others or as you put it "women who throw their weight around"

Iggi999

It looks like they are using there in a similar way that people used to use "cougar'. Although I think they were portrayed as going after younger men, I'm not sure if that is implied here.

We used to have a word we used for the male equivalent of cougar, creepy men that went to bars to hit on younger women, though I can't remember what is was now.

Anyway, I think it's become generalised for a lot of people in a way similar to millennial, rather than just indicating a particular age group it now embodies a bunch of other, usually unflattering, characteristics.

I find it offensive and it’s used to stamp on women who stand up for themselves or often others who are seen as weaker.

It’s to make sure they don’t say anything or assert themselves, particularly if they are middle aged.

These ‘stroppy’ women are often on my train home from work defending the teenagers getting pushed around or the man with the guide dog that no one will get up for.

This thread has shown me that it's gone beyond a silly way of discussing a certain type of customer (how I've only heard it used) into a general insult used in a way I've not previously come across.

Like what does this actually mean?

I don't think it is about complaining, not any more anyway. Wasn't there a tweet about the shadow minister for domestic violence being the "Karen minister", that for a zillion likes?
I've seen Karen memes about her divorcing and taking the children, and lots that just show groups of women with the kind of haircut favoured by a lot of women of a similar age, labelling them all Karen's. It's insidious and sexist.

twohopes

I think that's precisely what it is. Certain retail sectors, particularly food, are heavily skewed to women buyers.

In food service my experience was that men were probably marginally more likely to complain than women, but in either care they were likely to be professionals.

DidoLamenting
I haven't said I only notice that behaviour in only women.
I've said that much as I dislike the Karen phrase, I've never heard it used to refer to any woman who speaks up about poor service and have only heard it used to refer to a particular type of behaviour.

I dislike the behaviour in men and women, and sadly there's a minority of people who do throw their weight around to try and bully staff into giving them their own way.

I was trying to think when I'd last complained about something like that and then remembered having a discussion re an establishment's move to mixed sex toilets. I suppose I managed to be a terf and a Karen simultaneously

The different standards is the assumption that any, middle aged, white woman who complains about poor service is a "Karen"

Well it wouldn't make much sense to call a middle aged white man a Karen. We'd call him a wanker, probably.

People will always generalise about groups of people if they perceive any kind of pattern, even if they don't apply a word to it specifically. If no one had come up with that particular term, you would still get supermarket workers etc who recognised the sort of customer it indicates and they'd still communicate with each other about it in some way.

It's like couponers, - it's really dominated by women.

I've worked in bars, restaurants and cafes and can't say I've experienced a disproportionate number of white, middle aged women complainers. Arseholes come in all shapes and sizes (and sexes, ages and ethnicities). The disproportionate skew may be that women make up the vast proportion of consumer purchasing decisions (especially household purchasing) so you're more likely to come across female customers in retail. And probably even more likely to come across middle aged female customers as they're buying for an entire family.

And if you only happen to notice that behaviour when it's from that particular age and class of woman then maybe that says more about you than it does them

Totally agree Floisme

It's bias confirmation at its finest.

I've never come across "Karen" except on MN.

Does the scenario you describe happen often in real life? Certainly does not in mine and certainly not the case that it is a certain group of women who seek to power play.

I am extremely sceptical that only a certain group of women who seek to power play with retail/service staff, throw their weight around when they're being unreasonable behave like this.

In fact "extremely sceptical" might well be substituted for , I don't believe this behaviour is limited to a certain group.

Which comes back to "Karen" being used by lazy, stupid people and/or the possibility that any woman in the "Karen" demographic is going to be labelled a "Karen" even if her complaint is justified.

it's good that behaviour is called out.
It's not calling out the behaviour if you only use a woman of a certain age and class to personify it. It's lazy stereotyping, as has been pointed out countless times.
And if you only happen to notice that behaviour when it's from that particular age and class of woman then maybe that says more about you than it does them.

TwoHopes
I agree with the different standards. It's awful that a man behaving that was is excused by some people.

I think you're right Goosefoot

DidoLamenting
This is where I think usage differs. I've never seen Karen / can I talk to the manager haircut be used for any woman who speaks up about poor service. I've only ever heard it used to describe a certain group of women who seek to power play with retail/service staff, throw their weight around when they're being unreasonable. Anything that isn't them getting their own way is enough for them to huff and puff about apparently poor service because they're the big important customer who is always right (anecdotally a similar behaviour and attitude is exhibited by people who come to parents' evenings, demand free private tuition for the child who isn't working in class and then resort to informing teachers that "I pay your wages").

Eg. "Karen" is trying to do an exchange on an item with no tags and no receipts. Shop assistant says this isn't possible because it's not in the refund policy and the item isn't faulty. "Karen" starts making a scene, demands to speak to a manager, meanwhile a queue of other shoppers builds and all feel sorry for the poor shop assistant having to deal with such an arsehole.

In some ways it's actually a very useful term.

I have decided that anyone who uses the term to make a point or posts a "Karen" meme or who talks about "typical Karen behaviour" or "typical Karen look" is just too stupid and lazy for me to waste any time on what they have to say.

I appreciate that in itself might be stereotyping but I think it has more justification than the calling out of "Karens,"