Just had a blazing row with dd

How are you doing @steppemum

It sounds that you have had a very tough time of it over the last 4 years and I can completely sympathise. The trans identifying young female in our wider family is very concerned about men, as she sees herself as one. The clothes, the binders, the disappearing photos, I can see how frustrating it is.

I got into a very similar argument with this teenager and it was the teenager who got really angry and was steaming!

It was all very sad and unpleasant and yet it made me realise a few things.

The child in my situation is scared!

Scared as trans identifying person of violence

Fearful for men (and trans men and trans women too) who they see as (accurately so, sometimes) the victims of violence.

Helmetbymidnight

Yes that was a nasty and pointless post.
Chicken maybe read Op's other posts before commenting, she does a lot for her child.

I feel sorry for her. You don't sound like a very understanding or supportive mother. What does proving her wrong and winning the argument help? It won't change how she feels about her own gender.

Have you considered your biases?
The issue is about prevelence of male-pattern abuse (sex based difference)

The Independent article by Glosswitch:

'Domestic abuse isn’t caused by coronavirus – we’ve been ignoring women for years
If being in lockdown has highlighted anything, it’s the intractability of harmful beliefs about men and women'
(extract)
You’d think they sprang from nowhere. Lockdown abusers, loving partners driven to violence by circumstances beyond their control. “A fairly close-knit family, just normal” are found slaughtered alongside the family dog; “a loving 44-year marriage” ends with a husband accused of killing his wife; “a very nice, but very quiet” family fail to survive the first weekend of isolation.

And we’re told there’ll be more to come.

Even as everything seems to be changing, some things never do. In normal times – remember those? – we’d speak of “isolated incidents”, of honest men who would slaughter women as if out of the blue. Today, we say that “quarantine pressure started to take its toll”.

If coronavirus has highlighted anything, it’s the intractability of harmful beliefs about men and women." (continues)

The cause of the current rise in abuse is not Covid-19; it’s the outcome of years of neglecting victims of “normal” abuse on the basis that it’s just that: normal.

Domestic abuse is not an invisible virus. It does not flourish because there is no known cure. It flourishes because we’ve been unwilling to tackle the root causes: inequality, misogyny, male entitlement, the erosion of social support networks. The “normal” times – the “before” times of two, perhaps three, weeks ago – should never have been accepted as such.

What today’s victims of violence live with, they have always been living with. Now we can see it up close, let’s not look away again."

www.independent.co.uk/voices/cornavirus-lockdown-uk-domestic-abuse-crisis-priti-patel-womens-refuge-a9441566.html

Current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3874632-Both-the-Welsh-and-Scottish-Governments-have-pledged-money-to-Womens-Aid-why-hasnt-Westminster-done-the-same

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3871824-utterly-heartbreaking-thread-by-rachel-moran

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3875889-donating-to-a-domestic-abuse-charity

She’s 15 and she’s enjoying winding you up and watching you lose it. I’d ignore her

You don't sound like a very understanding or supportive mother

i bet you really enjoyed sticking the boot in there, didnt you.
nasty.

I feel sorry for her. You don't sound like a very understanding or supportive mother. What does proving her wrong and winning the argument help? It won't change how she feels about her own gender. Explain why her statistics are wrong, but love her unconditionally and don't try to score points.

She is 15-she is not a adult so therefore doesn’t have the experiences most adults have. She belives what she wants to believe and probably thinks it is correct with her whole heart, which is why she got so upset when you told her she is wrong.

You need a different tactic to this. I make my child aware that people believe different things and interpret things differently-
She can read what she likes on the internet and believe what she likes- the skill that is hard to develop is to identify you have read it and you believe it....but why? And what would you think of this if it was someone untrustworthy who told you this information...basically encourages them to think for themselves and see if they would have the same view themselves and not because they are being told to have that view.

When I was 18 I was in love with someone much older, everyone told me it was wrong and it wouldn’t last and he was using me. They was wrong and I believed nothing else. Now I’m a older adult with more life experiences I can see I was totally wrong and they was right, but at the time I wouldn’t be told.

We are always growing and adapting our views, thoughts and opinions.

It terrifies me that this anti woman movement is targeting children.

Particularly when it targets girls & young women.
Especially when it does so by creating a wedge between children & mothers.

It terrifies me that this anti woman movement is targeting children.

They are always a bit thick, aren't they?

steppemum

Has anyone heard of Tash Sultana she's an amazing musician who is female.
Tash Sultana (until recently) had they/them pronouns in her twitter bio and called herself non binary.Google Tash Sultana, non binary and you will get lots of hits.
Look at her twitter now!!NO PRONOUNS!!!!
What's happening FWR!!!!??

Tash now has new song called "pretty lady"
Some of the lyrics:

*Pretty lady
Where you going so fast
Try to make a moment last
Oh Come and take my hand why don’t you

I know that don’t try to tell me
Like I’m passing through a lesson learnt in time
But I know we’ve been over this
Why can’t I break through the other side
See I see how you see me
Is it the same why I really see myself
But I’m more than meets the surface
Sometimes I don’t feel worth this*

Personally what I find transphobic is people like Mumaof0 equating the opposition of men's rights activists' fake statistics with transphobia (I read their initial post accusing the OP of this before it was deleted for using slurs).

How's it gone today, OP?

Pronouns cannot function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

Well said.

What we have seen plenty of is someone espousing beliefs that have no personal cost for them which cost others in more vulnerable situations dearly.

I'm not middle class, and personally find the idea that a person could identify their way into or out of oppression to be a very privileged concept

The capacity for critical thought has little correlation with class. As has been aptly demonstrated by the gender debate.

Not read the whole post but I had a son who went through a period of watching "feminism is cancer" sort of videos.

What sorted him out was life experience. He met girls his age who were victims of violence from their boyfriends and men who weren't ashamed of abusing the girls. He heard men joking about the use of roofies and witnessed how his Dad and I ended up in stereotypical positions after divorce. People used to tell him that he was lucky to have such a great dad. He saw his Dad one night a fortnight.

Shock that I am the odd one out on bloody middle class mumsnet

I'm not middle class, and personally find the idea that a person could identify their way into or out of oppression to be a very privileged concept.

Yep assigned is only another way of saying recorded. So when it is recorded your sex is female your gender is therefore also female. And you're absolutely correct that we can't change sex which is recorded in our DNA. However gender and sex are different and some people choose to change their gender (while they can't chance their sex which is in their DNA). Some choose to alter their outward appearance (gender) to appear as a different sex even though they can't change their XY or XX chromosomes obviously. Don't know why people take it so personally like it's an attack on their own womanhood.

Assigned really isn't another way of saying recorded. They're two completely different words with different meanings. If you assign something to someone, you're allocating or giving something to them, recording is taking note of what is observed to be there.

And gender just isn't this tangible thing that people have. It would be far easier if we used the term sex role stereotypes perhaps. I.e. dressing your dd in pink is a sex role stereotype in this culture. So is the idea that she should take part in ballet instead of football.

Pronouns cannot function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo I've read the whole thread- I am aware that is not the subject of this discussion and I'm sure the experience of having an NB child is extraordinarily difficult for OP, but imo perhaps accepting their pronouns and using them would be the first step in being able to talk about the issues in this discussion without it becoming an argument. If OP's child feels respected then maybe they will be able respect OP's opinions more and discuss them in a calmer way.

Mumaof0 the trans people you know and interact with all accept their sex has not changed and they therefore do not expect to, nor ever access services that are designated on the basis of sex? They do not expect nor agree to language being altered which flies in the face of the sex binary?

If you had a conversation with a trans person (could you IMAGINE) they would tell you the same thing. Except you wouldn't bother to engage because you KNOW you're right don't you

Why asume people here don't speak to people who identify as trans or have identified as trans & subsequently detransitioned?

Are you here to engage or to berate, shout & then flounce?

They're not all the same.

Lifeinthelastlane, they'd eat her alive for those statements, still the answer to this question What about trans people is so harmful to young girls? would become very apparent, very quickly.

But you are wrong. Everything in my last post I have seen said on twitter. You speaking to a trans person doesn't mean that that person spoke for all transgender people! Stop stereotyping them.