Just had a blazing row with dd

So sorry for you to be going through this, and glad that you have had some good time.

Can I just ask, and this is in no way saying you are her mother are at fault, but do you know why she has decided that a men's rights group in Australia are the only source of "true" information? ie is her friendship network or something that has decided this.

Because as others have pointed out there are so many web sites, not just UK , but global giving stats on the number of women who die more domestic violence. I think it is said to be higher than the number of deaths from war / conflict.

Not sure that this train of thought helps, but trying to think of coming at it from a different angle rather than just saying look at the facts. Is there one person who she looks to as being worth listening to. Too often mums can come quite far down the list of who to listen to, not because they aren't worth listening to but society implies they aren't. And even though mums are worth spending evenings with cooking and singing.

Maybe in fact she was impressed by your passion, but might find it difficult to say she might be wrong. But slowly over time .... ?

Would she see any of these people as being someone to listen to www.womensaid.org.uk/about-us/who-we-are/patrons-and-ambassadors/

Did you see this thread. About how Magdalen Berns videos changed another mumsnetters daughter? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3886276-Magdalen-Berns-and-my-19-year-old-daughter-she-saw-the-light

steppemum

I didn't know that about the musicals on youtube thanks for that.
That's great to hear you are having good one on one with time with your DC :)

Really glad to hear you’re getting some respite from it all and sharing some close times with your DD. Sounds like good medicine, and it will definitely stand you in the best stead for any future difficult conversations.

OP - sorry if you've already answered this but as regards the DV have you asked your daughter to explain why there is a huge disparity between dead female partners and dead male partners?

Hope things are better.

steppemum

I think that last poster's post was either goady or misinformed and they didn't read your posts.

How is everything going now with you?

Haven't read the whole thread, others may have posted this earlier.

Joan McAlpine MP discussing violence stats:

"Women are not “just as likely” to seriously offend. Scottish Court stats 2017-18 show males were perpetrators in 98.5% of sexual crime and 88% of non sexual violent crime. Other countries much the same #waronwomen"

Finding statistics on violence disaggregted by sex is surprisingly hard. Almost like nobody wants it mentioned. But if you look long enough, those same proportions are repeated in England, in the USA, etc etc etc.

And, certainly men have to deal with partner or family violence too. In those cases, just as with female victims, the perpetrators are almost always men.

Pretending women are equally at fault is a total myth. They don't have the build for it, or the brains floating in testosterone, or the social messaging telling them it's their right. I'll come back with links to studies once I get my act together. Jessica Eaton's site references mountains of good research.

It's hard for kids with friend groups who are all totally bought into this stuff. They want to believe it because any other option means potential for a loss of those connections, I guess, and that's a powerful factor to overcome in any person never mind a teenager. Would it maybe help to draw some subtle parallels? Avoid direct criticism of the ideology but watch some documentaries about Scientology or similar to help her learn about coercive belief systems? Help build a toolkit of her own - enable her to recognise the dangers inherent in being discouraged from doing your own thinking etc. Just an idea.

@steppemum good to hear from you again glad things are going well.

twoHopes I agree, "The term "reciprocal violence" is irritating. There is a significant difference between a small woman hitting a large man and a large man hitting a small woman."

The term 'reciprocal' is used in the study, but I agree it is a problematic term.

Oh my gosh

I was the child in a DV relationship. I got beaten. I had a metal pole swing at my head. Which caused bleeding on the brain.

It was horrific. But I was too young to know. My mother. Who is a wonderful woman. Had no idea he beat me too. She would stand at my door. Holding him away. She didn't know he beat me secretly too.

When I was older. My auntie got into a DV relationship. He took the child away when he was 2. She didn't seee him again till he was 21. It was awful. They were married. He was named on the birth certificate. So when he took him. The police could t do anything. There's a lot more detail. But I'm not prepared to explain it.

I worry for some young woman. It's scary. How the internet shapes their views.

The term "reciprocal violence" is irritating. There is a significant difference between a small woman hitting a large man and a large man hitting a small woman. This is not to minimise DV perpetrated by women but those things are not "reciprocal". Let's stop talking about them as if they are.

"Among relationships with nonreciprocal violence, women were reported to be the perpetrator in a majority of cases (70.7%),

key thing here is "nonreciprocal violence." In most of these studies a woman being choked who pushes the man choking her away is committing "reciprocal violence." (In this particular study, given that they didn't measure choking, their statistics might even show that woman as an unprovoked aggressor against a man who didn't defend himself but surely the methodology can't be THAT bad?)

So that statistic basically shows that women are more likely to fight back instead of letting violence happen. This is obviously because the violence being inflicted on women is relatively much more severe, but the study didn't measure that, either, nothing to do with severity of injuries.

It's no bad thing for DD to have it pointed out that she isn't going to be able to identify out of her femaleness and the consequences of it. It's a hard and unpleasant lesson, but that's why it's so necessary.

apologies for cutting short the method (which indicates the specific nature of the data collected & analysed:

Methods. We analyzed data on young US adults aged 18 to 28 years from the 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, which contained information about partner violence and injury reported by 11 370 respondents on 18761 heterosexual relationships.

The group is also specific:

"We analyzed data on young US adults aged 18 to 28 years from the 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health"

I don't know if the 70% figure comes from this study, "Am J Public Health. 2007 May; 97(5): 941–947.
doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020
PMCID: PMC1854883
PMID: 17395835
Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence
Daniel J. Whitaker, PhD, Tadesse Haileyesus, MS, Monica Swahn, PhD, and Linda S. Saltzman, PhD"

at www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

The study contains this phrase... "Among relationships with nonreciprocal violence, women were reported to be the perpetrator in a majority of cases (70.7%), as reported by both women (67.7%) and men (74.9%)."

The study had Participants asked questions and they responded themselves with their own answers.

Looking to the end of the study this all seems very relevant to me.

"Limitations
There are several limitations of this work. The first set centers around the measures of partner violence. All measures were assessed using only participant reports about their own perpetration of violence and that of their partners. The data are thus subject to all the biases and limitations inherent to this form of data collection, such as recall bias, social desirability bias, and reporting bias. Regarding reporting biases, there has been much discussion of whether there are differences in reported IPV by the gender of the reporter. A meta-analysis of the reliability of the conflict tactics scale concluded that there is evidence of underreporting by both genders, and that underreporting may be greater for men,34 for more severe acts of IPV.21 It would have been ideal to collect violence data from both partners, but those data were not collected from the full Add Health sample.

A second measurement issue pertains to the scope of violence measures. The 3 questions included in the Add Health study do not capture all forms of violence that occur between relationship partners, including many of the more severe forms of partner violence on the Conflict Tactics Scale (e.g., used a knife or gun, choked, or burned). Questions about emotional, verbal, psychological, or sexual aggression were also not included. Similarly, only a single item assessed injury to victims and it focused on injury frequency and excluded injury severity and whether medical attention was needed or sought. Thus, it is unclear whether the data presented here would be similar had the violence and injury assessment been more thorough or if different forms of violence had been measured and analyzed separately."

Anyway, not sure if that is helpful to the OP but it may be useful if people quote these statistics to look at the limitations.

@steppemum

Can you discreetly encourage her to widen (/alter) her social circles? I'm always reminded of a friend, a psychology professor, telling me that parents are far less influential on their children than they think they are. Peers are a far greater influence. But parents are able to influence who is in that peer group- by the school the kid goes to, by the hobbies they encourage and pay for, by curfews and similar.

Maybe she can meet some people who are less into gender? (perhaps if they have some shared hobby or something).

Also maybe she can meet some people who defy gender stereotypes without feeling the need to change their pronouns. Some inspirational girls/women?

As long as she isn't thinking of taking steroids/mutilating her healthy body in the name of being something she never can be I wouldn't worry too much. She's clearly confident, assertive and ready to learn from mistakes.

Kit19 that quote is so helpful, thank you.

Oncewasblueandyellowtwo

"This from wikipedia:

In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men"

That item says... "In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence. However, men were more likely to inflict injury than women.[52]

I am wondering the 'violence' women are using which doesn't inflict injury.

52 Whitaker, Daniel (May 2007). "Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence". Am J Public Health. 97 (5): 941–947. doi:10.2105/AJPH.2005.079020. PMC 1854883. PMID 17395835.

I am going to take a look at that study sometime to see what it found out, but for the moment I just wanted to make the point that the second sentence there seems to qualify the first a bit.

I hope things are better and calmer now.

I completely refute that men are more often victims of violence from women, men, like women can be victims of men more often, and in a domestic situation women are usually a lot more vulnerable.

For some young people, the one in my family and maybe the one in your family too, steppemum, it is a case of playing the long game. The things that build connection and foster trust are long term the better things. I totally find it so hard.

It is not easy to parent a child who is questioning their gender, or questioning existing facts about the world, but maybe ask, what they are saying may tell you more about what they feel than what they actually think is factually accurate, IMHO.