Covid-19 and purity spirals

So are you saying you would be happy to sign to say you would forgive a ventilator doctors might feel necessary in favour of someone who has been observing lockdown properly?

www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-germany-treating-its-coronavirus-patients-differently-

I suspect that a large percentage of the population will already have had Covid or are likely to at some point. Those in hospital or in care homes are going to be especially vulnerable - and that includes the staff that work there.

I've read a couple of articles in The Spectator over the last few days.....in which doubts and concern about the automatic and high use of ventilators has been questioned; and about overly early admittance to hospital: www.spectator.co.uk/article/Ventilators-aren-t-a-panacea-for-a-pandemic-like-coronavirus?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BOCH%20%2020200409%20%20GC&utm_content=BOCH%20%2020200409%20%20GC+CID_e56628a9c93f67dcca94bad7d36f8e6c&utm_source=CampaignMonitor_Editorial&utm_term=Ventilators%20arent%20a%20panacea%20for%20a%20pandemic%20like%20coronavirus: german lung specialist questions use of ventilators - the spectator

Hooves - you are being asked to shield to protect yourself not wider society. Others are being asked to social distance to protect wider society and, in particular, the NHS. Two completely different things. People taking thirty seconds extra in Tesco to buy an Easter egg as well as the Hooves-approved ingredients for their Pandemic Gruel are not putting you at extra risk.

The shielding guidance (yes, I do have personal experience of it) makes it very clear that following it to the letter is an intensely personal decision rather than a set of unbreakable/enforceable rules and provides suggestions about mental wellness and not fixating on activities that distress us. It is wise advice and you should probably follow it because this thread is clearly not doing you any good at all.

Justhadathought so you are mixing households in clear breach of requirements, your family members are going out several times a day on nonessential trips, you are shopping in a manner that increases risk (lots of little shops), either you or your daughter’s household are making non-essential trips to take your granddaughter from one household to the next. You really don’t care about lockdown do you? Just what is nice for you.

We are doing what we have to do to survive and not be driven demented.

So it's ok for everyone to follow suit is it? We can all interpret the rules in ways that best suit us? So, basically no point in having any rules then is there? It's only fairly safe for you to do what you are doing because other people are following the rules exactly. If we all did what you are doing them the NHS wouldn't cope and death rates would be many times higher than they are now. I don't get why you don't see this? That it's fine for other people to do the really hard work, in order to keep you and yours safe enough to flout the rules.

And yes I have a garden but I can't use it because our neighbours are out there a lot and I can't keep at least two metres away from them.

There were initial concerns that ACE inhibitors put you at risk from severe complications but I haven't heard much more about it. Presumably they are still looking into it. It's want the case that it affected your immunity but that it affected the way the virus could bind with receptors in the lungs.

Basically, if the BP medication affects the immune system then your friend would have infection control guidelines to follow all of the time. It would affect her Covid or no Covid. So I have to avoid eating certain foods, soft cheese, under cooked eggs and meat, have to contact the Dr immediately if I develop a sore throat or fever ( before Covid), have to avoid anyone with chicken pox and so on. Standard precautions that I've had to follow since I started treatment because I am immunocompromised.

Having high blood pressure puts you at risk of suffering severe complications because your cardiovascular system is already struggling. The extra insult of SARS puts even more strain on an already weakened system. It isn't about your immune system.

*Then that's utterly ridiculous and in clear breach of the rules but again, another excuse as to why you are different and the rules don't apply8

We are doing what we have to do to survive and not be driven demented. That would do nobody any good. We take all sensible precautions and spend most of our time in the garden during the day.
I'm not going to apologise for that. My husband is the one that is most officially 'vulnerable'.....but he's not living riddled with fear. Prolonged anxiety & fear in itself can make you ill...and is likely to weaken your immune system.

Do you have a garden?

This looks superficially like a purity spiral, but I think it is a fear spiral.

Ok that's a fair point. They have a lot of similarities though. And the clapping policing etc is a purity spiral and there are elements of purity in some of the rest of it.

No, blood pressure medication does not affect the immune system

My friend is under the impression it can?

No, she lives about a mile away with my daughter. But we have always had a lot of responsibility for her ( she's 5).....

Then that's utterly ridiculous and in clear breach of the rules but again, another excuse as to why you are different and the rules don't apply.

I'm not really sure what that proves

It doesn't prove anything. it is just me sharing a personal anecdote.

I take it your grand daughter lives with you as you are still seeing her?
People in the shielded group cannot. We have to isolate from other household members and are told not to go out of our homes

No, she lives about a mile away with my daughter. But we have always had a lot of responsibility for her ( she's 5)......and we see our two households as one functional household and, as such, act accordingly. We are the only people they have contact with..and vice versa. Apart from in supermarkets.

I'm not really sure what that proves? Ireland have announced restrictions to continue for another three weeks and are not as badly affected as UK. Still not sure what that has to do with anything

My son lives in Barcelona, and he says that they are thinking of lifting the restrictions in a couple of weeks.......and permitting children to go back to school. The UK is 2/3 weeks behind Spain.

Justhadathought

With respect you are confusing the vulnerable group with the shielded group.

No, blood pressure medication does not affect the immune system. High blood pressure makes you more vulnerable to developing complications. A certain type of medication, ACE inhibitors, were thought to increase risk but still under investigation.

Yes, your husband who is in a vulnerable group can go out on e per day to exercise. He can also mix with you at home. He is,however still at an increased risk of developing a severe form of this disease and people in the vulnerable group are advised to self isolate as much as possible. I take it your grand daughter lives with you as you are still seeing her?
People in the shielded group cannot. We have to isolate from other household members and are told not to go out of our homes.

I'm immunosuppressed. Why would the shielding letter say explicitly not to leave the house if it's ok to go for a walk, if I really wanted to

I have a friend who is on medication for high blood pressure....which I understand can seriously negatively impact on the immune system......?I guess you have to do what you feel instinctively is the right thing for you....and if you are seriously compromised it must be a very worrying time for both you and your family.

My husband had surgery for prostate cancer last year.....it did not involve chemo or radiation, fortunately...and he has now been given the all clear. He's the youngest looking, and fittest 73 year old you're ever likely to meet ( a lot older than me.....I'm 54) - but given his age does fall into the 'vulnerable' category.

However, he still goes for a morning run every other day, and we both go out to the local park or promenade with our granddaughter most days. I do all of the shopping, though......but do find myself going on a regular basis - doing smaller baskets, at a variety of local stores - most often walking there and back with the shopping.

Bigger supermarkets are for bigger shops.....for those items that are difficult to find elsewhere - and then I'll take the car. Lots of older people don't have a car, though........and unless they have someone doing shopping for them, then they need to go more frequently than once a week.

It's a difficult and strange time for us all........and it certainly has brought great fear into the lives of many.......but also, I think, the potential for gossip and twitching curtains.

It's really no surprise that there's a strong and resentful reaction to seeing other people ignore all that or make spurious exceptions for themselves.

Except many of the rule breaches aren't breaches at all, they're making up criteria they believe other people should follow.

Even the much maligned bar of chocolate buyer - you've no idea what they came in for. Sure, some probably did just come for the chocolate. But others probably went for something more essential to find it out of stock.

Sorry just come off shift so may not make a lot of sense. For people being shielded they need to take stringent means to not come into contact with the virus at all because it may well kill them. However, with no vaccine and no cure we need the rest of the population to gradually be exposed to the virus otherwise we will be in lockdown forever. The issue is it needs to be done slowly and in a controlled way so that the health service is not overwhelmed. Hence the difference in what people are allowed to do. So the general public need to gradually be exposed to the virus and build up their immunity, with the help of health interventions if necessary.

And for the record, after a 70 hour a week or so on the frontline I am partial to a small glass of wine! Everyone needs something to look forward to.

People are restricted, hugely, and feel like they're losing hugely important human connections. They're taking extreme steps to do their bit in line with the guidance they're receiving from govt. Making huge changes to their lives and managing the stress of disconnection with people they love and are used to seeing regularly. Leaving loved ones alone. For weeks. People on their own. People keeping kids inside and away from other kids. It's horribly painful and difficult.

It's really no surprise that there's a strong and resentful reaction to seeing other people ignore all that or make spurious exceptions for themselves.

Nobody really cares if when you do a weekly shop you buy wine and chocolate.

Hooves does! Apparently it means that we will then take too long in the shop.

(It doesn't, but try telling her that if you feel up to 15 rounds of the exact same argument.)

And the issue about what people buy seems to have been sparked or fuelled by the many comments I see online from shop staff complaining about a good number of people going to shops and buying a chocolate bar, or going to the supermarket every single day. Nobody really cares if when you do a weekly shop you buy wine and chocolate. They do care if you make lots of tiny trips to the shop over the week to buy the same things.

Sitting on park benches is the issue. That can spread corona. My mobility isn't great so I just walk around some streets rather than go to the park. It does not matter to me if I can sit in a bench or not, I just know it would be stupid to do so. So I don't go to the park as I can't walk that far and back without sitting down. Exercise does not have to be in lovely surroundings.

I do not agree this is an example of a purity spiral. Purity spirals are where people end up competing to a ridiculous degree to be the most right on calling out tinier and tinier infractions or perceived infractions.

This looks superficially like a purity spiral, but I think it is a fear spiral. I have noticed that those most talking about infractions in the way you say OP are often either in the shielded group or have a close family member who is, or have someone close to them who is a medic treating patients affected.

The government did not take this seriously enough, they failed us spectacularly. Which is why we are in the situation we are with a high mortality rate. but because the government have continually underplayed it, there are still people not taking this seriously, and people whose main focus seems to be outrage at any restrictions and a focus on what they can get away with. These two groups are colliding online. That is what creates these posts.

The person who is very afraid sees people not following rules and gets more and more outraged. That outrage is really fear. They want people to not just follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law too. The law is there to reduce transmission.

Thank you for all you're doing, Floral

Well, quite apart from anything else, we're using the Easter Sunday close down to try and make sure stock levels in store return to the normal levels they would have been before so many people lost their damned minds about toilet roll and long life milk. The issue has never been about access and the supply chain - it's been people suddenly making wild and ridiculously unnecessary changes to their shopping habits. There is no need. Please just shop for what you would ordinarily buy, factoring in that there may be short term restrictions on some ambient goods.

Honestly, everyone, like I say, food retailers are in a risky situation, but we're doing our job conscientiously and if you are abiding by the simple distancing and washing your hands when you get home, we will all be as safe as possible.