Covid-19 and purity spirals

My youngest son still lives at home.

justhadathought I would really plead with you to follow guidelines on social distancing. It is not just your judgement that matters here. It depends on how many households have contact with each other so if you have contact with another household and they in turn have contact with another then the spread goes on.

And in general it's not just the distancing but what you leave behind in shops etc which is why the ask is to minimise contact with the fabric of buildings etc as well as people in these places.

Aah, right, so they're not children, they're adults who live away from home, not quite the same thing then at all hmm

Wtf? They are my children. Have I ceased to be a mum then because my children are in their early twenties? My DD still lives here. This is her home. In two months time her lease ends on her student flat. Where do you think her home will be?

Do you have offspring? What do you call them if not children?

And do not mix households apparently means "see our granddaughter because she only lives a mile away

this is the last time i'm going to respond to you---because no matter what anyone says it seems to be feeding your outrage and fear.

My granddaughter is a part of our family unit, and has been from the day she was born. My daughter is a single parent, and they have no garden. My granddaughter is not at school, because it is closed; cannot have play dates with friends; cannot go to the playground in the park, or to any of her other normal social activities. She doesn't go to the supermarket with me or my daughter, either.

She plays in our garden/house, and goes out on her scooter with us a family unit. She then goes home, in her mother's car, at the end of each day; repeat........

We all have responsibility for each other.....and it does no-one any good to unnecessarily self flagellate or martyr themselves. Mental and emotional well being are very important. At present we are managing to maintain a happy and healthy household - within the guidelines around social distancing and unnecessary car journeys.

I'm not going to apologise for any of that.

You do realise that children still need to be looked after......and that people who are strictly shielding require others outside of their household to act on their behalf in any number of ways....from delivery drivers, packers, post office staff, maintenance engineers, shop workers, local charity volunteers, and medical staff ( many of whom also have children that need to be looked after so that they can work).

I'm sorry that you can't see your own children, but I'm not going to feel guilty about seeing mine. One of my sons is working from home at present ( he works for a housing association, on their 24 hour help-line for vulnerable and elderly residents - and so is very busy at present), the other works in Barcelona ( for a health company) and suspects he's already had the virus...but is now back at work.....in fact the company is taking on lots more new staff. We were expecting to see him in March - but we obviously won't be able to until flights are re-instated.

But you haven’t been to work for weeks, according to you. You have no idea what is happening in supermarkets now.

Of course I know what's going on. My husband goes in there once a fortnight to do our shopping and I'm speaking to my friends there every day. Why wouldn't I know what's happening? I can't go out but I'm allowed to talk to people on the phone

why on earth have you sent your children away?

I haven't sent them away. One is at uni and was there when lockdown was announced.

The other is a teacher, who is still at work.

So, they can't come home and we can't go and see them. It's my daughter's 21st in a couple of weeks and I won't be able to see her, so I have to be here knowing that she's there on her own while others are just doing whatever they like because the rules don't apply to them?

How can you not see the irony here? You've been arguing all along that you know better than the government scientists. The experts are telling people that for most people it's fine to go for a walk/buy whatever you want in the supermarket and you're arguing that their advice isn't enough

Nope. I've said that people should follow the rules from government which are, amongst others, you go out once a day to exercise - not sunbathe, sit in the park, drive for miles to go to a beach - that's what I have a problem with. People arguing that " what harm does it do, sitting in a park maintaining social distance?" because that is not what we have been told we can do.

The government have also repeatedly stated that we should go out as little as possible, for essential shopping or medical reasons, for exercise or to care for a vulnerable person but to.minimise the time spent out when doing this. So browsing in the shop, or going every day is not in keeping with those guidelines.

It is not me who is making up rules. The people who are making them up are the ones who are trying to interpret them as loosely as possible - somehow go out as little as possible and minimise your time out means " go shopping every day and wander around to see what takes my fancy"

Go out once per day to exercise but minimise time out means " sunbathe in the park all day"

And do not mix households apparently means "see our granddaughter because she only lives a mile away".

So no, it isn't me making up rules. It's people taking perfectly clear rules and then re interpreting them to suit themselves.

isabelle quite right, I wouldn’t either but more wandering how far people are prepared to follow through on the consequences of their actions. When someone is ignoring lockdown rules because they think they are special and know more than epidemiologists with all the facts then are they also prepared to accept the outcomes of this decision when they impact them personally.

Spend a couple of hours in the superstore looking at everything, browsing the clothing department, wandering around home furnishings"? You are looking only at your own behaviour whereas I'm looking at it based on the behaviours that I was seeing every day at work

But you haven’t been to work for weeks, according to you. You have no idea what is happening in supermarkets now. The clothing section is roped off in our big Sainsbury’s and our Tesco’s has limited entry in, one way arrows around the store, with distances marked off so you shuffle forward in turn. You can only ‘browse’ what is immediately next to you whilst you wait.

So you know more than the government scientists

I said last night that I wasn't going to respond to you any more but I saw this and couldn't resist.

How can you not see the irony here? You've been arguing all along that you know better than the government scientists. The experts are telling people that for most people it's fine to go for a walk/buy whatever you want in the supermarket and you're arguing that their advice isn't enough.

It wasn't concern, faux or otherwise. It was advice since you seem to be spiralling. Government advice - you know, the stuff you're telling everyone else to follow to the letter.

And that apparently it's fine to ignore because we can all do whatever we like, right?

I trust my own judgment and follow the guidelines about social distancing.

So you know more than the government scientists then who have prohibited mixing households because you know best? And you aren't social distancing. How can you with a five year old?

And thanks for the faux concern but I'll manage my mental health as I see fit thanks, not how you tell me too. If it's fine for everyone else to interpret lockdown guidelines however they like then I'll do the same.

It wasn't concern, faux or otherwise. It was advice since you seem to be spiralling. Government advice - you know, the stuff you're telling everyone else to follow to the letter.

I suspect that a large percentage of the population will already have had Covid or are likely to at some point.

Then you suspect very wrongly. Results coming out from Germany, from a hard hit area, are showing only 15% of the population infected. They are awaiting results from UK and Italy but modellers are suggesting rates between 10 and 15%. You need at least 60% for herd immunity.

Pretty much, yes! As long as you are following sensible social distancing and cleanliness guidelines, and avoiding too much contact with those outside of your family unit.

Well you aren't doing that are you? We are explicitly prohibited from mixing households and how are you social distancing from a five year old? So, basically everyone else can follow the rules, apart from you? So, let's all do what you're doing. Obviously the NHS will be overwhelmed and thousands will die, including from non Covid related illnesses and accidents but none of that matters right? All that matters is that individually we do what we want to do. Screw everyone else.

Yes, I'm following the shielding guidelines because I'm fifty. I'm not ready to die yet. I'm not ready to leave my kids without a mum or my parents without a daughter. I'm also not willing not take NHS resources away from someone else because of my selfish actions. But hey, maybe you and your husband aren't fussed about any of that? Presumably if he catches this he is foregoing any hospital treatment?

I’m saving my criticism for the government and those who could have made a difference months ago. Or years ago.

In 2017 the government ran a simulation (war game?) with key stakeholders and scientists to explore the risks of a flu pandemic. The results showed we didn’t have enough ventilators. The report was never published and the learnings weren’t learnt. One of the scientists was on the World at One (radio 4) this week talking about it.

I’ll save my wrath for the people who ignore the advice of experts and disregard the safety of thousands -not the person too fed up with being inside and taking the rules to the edge

I am following the correct social distancing advice but I really dislike the whole 'would you be willing to forego treatment?' line of thought. Even if someone who flouts the rules becomes ill there is no guarantee that they caught the virus whilst flouting the rules. Yes, it's against the current law and they shouldn't be doing it, but they could actually have picked the virus up from a trolley whilst doing their essential shopping. I don't like the idea of deserving and undeserving sick people. If you came across a car smashed into a tree on a country road you wouldn't just stand back and refuse to dial 999 because the person had clearly been speeding so they don't deserve an ambulance.

You really don’t care about lockdown do you? Just what is nice for you

I don't care about curtain twitchers and virtue signallers, no. I trust my own judgment and follow the guidelines about social distancing.

There were initial concerns that ACE inhibitors put you at risk from severe complications but I haven't heard much more about it. Presumably they are still looking into it. It's want the case that it affected your immunity but that it affected the way the virus could bind with receptors in the lungs.

They are still looking into it, as there was limited evidence/speculation both that ACE inhibitors/ARBs were problematic, and that they potentially had a protective effect during the illness. And the advice from NHS has remained that you should not stop taking blood pressure medication.

www.jwatch.org/na51345/2020/04/09/ace-inhibitors-and-arbs-during-covid-19-pandemic

WhatKatyDidNot

Again, you seem to assume that "allowing people to buy whatever they want" translates into "buying an Easter egg when doing a big shop". Why? Why doesn't "buy whatever you want" = "shop as you normally do. Spend a couple of hours in the superstore looking at everything, browsing the clothing department, wandering around home furnishings"? You are looking only at your own behaviour whereas I'm looking at it based on the behaviours that I was seeing every day at work.

And thanks for the faux concern but I'll manage my mental health as I see fit thanks, not how you tell me too. If it's fine for everyone else to interpret lockdown guidelines however they like then I'll do the same.

Have you read the articles. That was quick!

So are you saying you would be happy to sign to say you would forgive a ventilator doctors might feel necessary in favour of someone who has been observing lockdown properly

I'm not making definitive statements...I'm posting links which some might find quite interesting.

*forgo

So it's ok for everyone to follow suit is it? We can all interpret the rules in ways that best suit us

Pretty much, yes! As long as you are following sensible social distancing and cleanliness guidelines, and avoiding too much contact with those outside of your family unit.