Why is the BBC Promoting Sex Work?

PaleBlueMoonlight The main reason people want decriminalisation rather than legalisation is because if it is legalised regulation will mean that there are limits to what men can ask women to do Don’t know where you got this idea from.

Prostitutes even in the semi-legal situation in the UK set their own boundaries of what they will and will not do for their fee. Payment does not entitle the client to do what he likes.

The problem with legalsation etc is that it create a two level system –so for instance requiring prostitutes to register-many won’t do this as they fear that the registration body will not be secure-that information may be passed on to others etc. and affect subsequent employment prospects. So it immediately creates an “outlaw sector”

It is much cleaner to decriminalise as is done in NSW Australia or in New Zealand.

Onlylang Because no H&S risk assessment is going to let those exchanges of body fluids happen without some serious layers of protective equipment now this is an argument I have often seen on Mumsnet threads-and is really silly.

A risk assessment is precisely that-prostitutes are careful with their health often being checked regularly for STDs. The risk of them getting anything or passing on anything is probably less that involved in a one night stand with someone of unknown disease status.

Interestingly studies of SDs in prostitutes show that the best way of protected their health is via decriminalisation here & here

OnlyLang Indeed. The main reason people want decriminalisation rather than legalisation is because if it is legalised regulation will mean that there are limits to what men can ask women to do. As the whole industry is founded on men getting women to do things which they wouldn't do if not given money, it means most of the industry would remain illegal.

Quite apart from all the other valid points already made about societal harm etc, if prostitution is legitimate work then we have an even bigger issue with the shortage of PPE equipment than we already thought. Because no H&S risk assessment is going to let those exchanges of body fluids happen without some serious layers of protective equipment.

And to answer you exponential, sex is intimacy. That is why it is very very different from cutting one’s hair. In addition in a patriarchy it is very closely bound up with power and status.

I normally lurk on here, but @Butters0123 your belief that prostitution does not have any serious detriment in society is just that, a belief: every bit as I’ll-founded and illogical as you have accused others of being. Evidence that it does has been presented: you simply choose to dismiss it. Mention has been made of the detriment in terms of trafficking and slavery of women, and the link to poverty: you minimise it. Mention is made of the issues in Germany: you say that is irrelevant. Mention has been made of the issues affecting all women in Holbeck, Leeds: you pretend it doesn’t exist. The link to pornography and the detriment to women from that has been mentioned, and it is well known how women are suffering as more extreme acts from porn become mainstream: you ignore that.

It’s typical denial and minimizing that violence against women always gets. Nothing more. You are doing yourself no favours by continuing that trend here.

I wonder if @ Wimmin was being goady by repeating these rad fem tropes or wanted a serious debate.

Of course prostitution can be a choice-it may be a choice between not very appealing alternatives but it can be a choice nonetheless. I know there is a school of radical feminist philosophising that holds that no one could possibly choose prostitution and those that say they do are suffering from “false consciousness” but in the real world of data that is untrue. here , here here ,here , here

Although I don’t like the term “sex work” as it is not sufficiently precise there is no doubt that prostitutes consider their work a job. They provide a service and they get paid (like a hairdresser or a plumber). So in what sense is it not work?

And don’t give that garbage that if it was work it would be advertised in job centres.

Sex work "as a free choice..." - highly disputable.
"sex work" is a contradiction in terms, or should be.

It's that dad gummed Feminism again, innit?

Dagnabbit Bewilderness, we ruin everything

I learnt nothing from butters posts apart from they posts feel a bit off and just something not right about them

If Butters is just a normal woman and mumsnetter with no connection to the sex trade then I am Mickey Mouse.

Exponential I just responded to your DM looking for the evidence on the dissociation thread.

As I said there it was probably a year back I read it on here, so obviously I can’t remember the exact thread it was on although if your read through threads from working girl the issue comes up a lot so you should be able to find it yourself with a bit of research on the topic.

Why is this site toxic?

Cos many of us believe nobody should be treated like a wanksock?

It's that dad gummed Feminism again, innit?

Prostituted women are among the highest murder rate of any demographic in countries where sex trafficking is legal as well in counties where it is illegal.
Male violence is the greatest human rights crisis the world has ever known.

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

Libertarians talk a lot about freedoms and not at all about how society should manage people that cannot or will not regulate their own behaviour.
Whereas most feminists have a background in managing the effects of harm (it is how many women find feminism after all), so that's usually our first consideration.
So we are talking at odds.

I get such a bad vibe of butters posts. Like hectoring and lecturing.

Not good to read.

I learnt nothing from butters posts apart from they posts feel a bit off and just something not right about them

Sexual slavery is already illegal. If that is what is actually happening then the powers already exist to deal with it.

I love what a denialist you are. Oh no, it probably never actually happens.

And coercion is not just about physical force.

I didn't say that sex workers were slaves Butters, but since you lack basic reading comprehension let me phrase it a different way. If an oppressor group wants to engage in a system of behaviour which reinforces their own supremacy whilst undermining the equality and safety of an oppressed group, would you support such a system just because a minority of people from the oppressed group claimed they also wanted to participate in it? If no then you're a hypocrit, and if yes then I don't really think I have anything else to say to you. Men are an oppressor group and buying sex from women, an oppressed group, reinforces male supremacy and undermines the equality and safety of all women. But you think we should tolerate such a system because a small number of women claim that they also want to participate in it. Despite the fact that it further entrenches the cultural beliefs about male sexual entitlement and the commodification of women which harms all of us. I'm asking whether you would support such a system if any other oppressed group were on the sharp end of it, or whether its just women that you hate?

I'm going to have one more go.

I think sex should be about - broadly - mutual pleasure, respect, mutual desire and trust, in the pursuit of fun, bonding, relationships and/or making babies.

I think sex work makes sex about objectification and the exchange of money in the pursuit of individual gratification and the breaking down of the connection between sex and relationships, fun and bonding. I cannot understand why this is desirable, any more than revenge sex is desirable (to offer a somewhat less serious comparator). Not only do think it is not desirable of itself, but I also think that promoting sex in this way is incompatible with teaching young people what, in my view, constitutes healthy attitudes to sex. I also think it is actively dangerous in encouraging a culture that says to men that women's bodies are something that can be used without any engagement with the person that inhabits them (and I use "men" and "women" here advisedly, because this dynamic is particularly relevant to feminism).

It is for these reasons that I object strongly to the BBC promoting sex in this way as AOK.

I’m amazed at the amount of straw you managed to rustle up to make a nice man out of my posts, butter and exponential, while not actually engaging with any of my points. Quite impressive.

As neither of you are interested in debating the actual topic (what the BBC has to say about “sex work”) or the points I was making, I don’t think there’s much more to be gained in the debate for me.

I did find that post just now, and i have to say, for a poster seeminly obsessed with clarity, they didn't make a huge amount of sense. I think I'll wait until they have a peer reviewed study of their own for me to peruse before I give them any further energy.

Ruffle Haven’t got time to look now, but I think somewhere Exponential did critique the Nordic Model Now evidence and said that they have written to them about it. I am not sure that they have offered any alternative or better quality evidence, however.

I haven't insulted you. I've accurately described the way you're coming across. Someone who was genuinely concerned with evidence would have followed my pointer to the research underpinning Nordic Model Now (freely available on their website) rather than searching for references to obscure psychological terminology on a social media site

pocketem,

a·nal·o·gy
/əˈnaləjē/
noun: analogy; plural noun: analogies

a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification

@Rufflecow I wondered how long it would be before the insults started-so I am lazy-but yet I can go through all those threads-ever heard of word search?

And misogynist-how so? Yes I do have an axe to grind-I believe in proper research not spouting off prejudices as evidence

Why is this site toxic?

Cos many of us believe nobody should be treated like a wanksock?

Wtf @exponential. You don't think we're stupid enough to believe you've read through 500 mn threads on prostitution with your incredible forensic vision since this thread started? 'Dissociation' is not a word everybody knows. People might describe those sensations 500 different ways. What did you do before lockdown started?! You're coming across as a very bored, and quite lazy, misogynist with an axe to grind tbh.