Feminism and mothers of sons

@Clymene I don't think any feminists want to violate transgender peoples human rights but many TRAs will try to make us believe that feminism is an anti trans belief.

I personally think that feminism and transgenderism are 2 seperate things, but as with the group that DangerCat01 has found herself kicked out of, there are a lot of TRAs who will promulgate a belief that feminists do want to violate trans human rights and use that as a tool to stop women meeting and discussing women's issues.

Have you seen this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3870547-women-s-network

Just stepping in what is of course a very emotive subject. Obviously no women who are feminists and have sons are not doing what they can to ensure their boy children dont grow into women despising men.

Unfortunately based on reports from universities and what is going on is schools young men are just as likely to be influenced by a male culture that in the times of social media is openly full of sexist and degrading opinions of women.

And in some cases mothers of those young men wont necessarily be aware that they have those attitudes because how they behave at home wont be how they behave outside of the family circle.

And it is not just Mediterranean culture where as son is valued or treated differently than a duaghter. It doesnt matter how hard we try this creeps in. Ask the daughters of familes who have brothers what they experience. Their mothers might be surprised by what they hear.

As to being thrown of a Women's Network at the NHS, this is just horrible, but part of what we now know about the power of the trans movement. the idea that health workers of all people wouldn't understand that the reality of sex is not the same as the construct of gender. Unfortunely many women in many professions are now finding this. So despite the lockdon we all need to do what we can to counter this erasing of women. For instance Pink news is continuing to spew out its hatred of gender critical women, and continues to try and discredit the LGB Alliance.

For the OP I can only hope you have some few friends who you can talk with without fear of criticism and rejection.

And it must be hard in the workplace to feel alienated from colleagues.

And whatever it is you are doing in the NHS thank you. With the stress you are all under the last thing you need is stupid work politics.

OP, this statement made me laugh:

I think I’m a little damaged (prob too strong a term, maybe disturbed would be better) that my Mama made a massive demonstrative fuss of my brother. I know for sure that she loved me by fucking hell, it was like he was the second coming.

I have no idea if it's Mediterranean thing, but can assure you, this is pretty much how it is in DH's family (also Mediterranean). it is embarrassing going to her house because of the sheer quantity of photos of him vs his DSis. A

And even knowing that their daughter's husband is an abusive, lazy git, it never ceases to amaze me how often the conversation goes something like, "But SonIL must really struggle with DD - she doesn't even cook him dinner every night" or similar. Does my head in.

I can only answer for myself, @DangerCat01. I have three sons, and I am a gender critical feminist. I think it is perfectly possible to be both - indeed, I would argue that feminist women are the BEST people to bring up sons, because we will raise them to be respectful of women, to understand why women need single sex spaces, to see how exploitative of women things like porn are, to understand the need for feminism, and to avoid toxic masculinity.

My boys are all in their 20s now, and I hope and believe I have raised them to be the sort of decent men that society needs.

@MrsDoylesTeaBags - can you provide any examples of feminists who want to 'violate' the human rights of transgender people?

I think I get what the OP is trying to say. As she doesn't have maternal feelings of love for any males she finds it easier to put females first. Mothers of sons may struggle with the idea that many males are misogynistic and have 'rose tinted glasses ' when it comes to their own boys. Is that kind of what you're getting at OP?

Oh and on your other point about sons and daughters. I see where you're coming from in that many cultures value sons over daughters, this is sad but true and we cannot ignore that. I think the only answer is as other posters have commented, take notice and try to raise ours sons to treat girls as equals and raise our girls to understand their true value.

I think the problem is OP that you have feminism one the one hand and then trans rights activism on the other. These are two completely seperate things.

You can be a feminist and believe that transgender people's human rights should not be voilated. You can be transgender and believe that women's human rights shold not be violated, and then there is a small vocal and very agressive group that really want to do harm to the first group and use the second group by any means necessary as a Trojan Horse to achive that.

Don't ever be fooled into believing otherwise.

I'm raising two good feminist allies who understand the Bechdel test, see both parents pulling their weight round the home and never, ever hear that anything is just for boys or girls. Hoping they'll be my contribution to a better future

My son is great - but I come from a family with a lot of sisters (and one brother), and there was none of the 'sainted boy' attitude in our family!

My son is a very aware of feminism and understands it as much as a male can. Obviously he hasn't had the experiences I had as a 15-year-old girl but he recognises sexism and unfairness in society and is very aware of gender politics and the danger it poses to women - and girls and boys.

Sometimes I don’t really feel like a proper feminist because I have (a lot of) sons and no daughters I feel it excludes me from some conversations on threads here about why things need to change ‘for our daughters’. Is that what you mean?

I totally understand why women want exclusively female spaces but they are not the ones hanging around outside the men’s when you’ve sent you 8 year old into adult male changing rooms with a load random men.

I’m trying to raise my boys to be kind decent humans. I also worry that the patriarchy has awful consequences for them too because of toxic masculinity and not being able to express emotions etc.

I’ve got sons and daughters and love them all enormously. I don’t think humans can change sex or that my sons should be allowed to barge into women’s changing rooms though. I don’t think it’s loving to raise your children, of either sex, to be narcissistic or inward facing or to think their wants trump other peoples rights. It’s just hard to go through life thinking like that. It’s hard to raise a family of your own or get on at work or enjoy anything that requires an ounce of critical thinking if you raise your sons to be self involved porn soaked man children. I’m a feminist mother because I love my children, not in spite of it.

It sounds like as someone who is GC you've had a tough time recently. I'm sorry for that.

But no, OP, it's not because these other women have sons that they are calling you TERF or whatever. I can see how you might feel that way, but it's just coincidence in this case.

I have a girl and a boy. I am determined to bring them up without gender stereotypes. I am frustrated when I see these somehow getting through already. I work hard to challenge every single time either one of them thinks something must/n't happen because that's for girls/boys only. DH does the same. We teach them about consent and respect for their own and others' bodies. I have had to teach DS how to manage changing rooms by himself because I accept that he is too old to come into the ladies at our gym and the family changing facilities are so limited it's almost impossible to access them.

DD's "best" friend is a little boy. He's very "girly". His parents are fine with that but their biggest fear is that at some point he's going to get this idea that he's actually a girl rather than just a boy who likes sparkly things.

Yes I love my son more than life itself.
No I would not tell him it was ok to use women's spaces, not even if he said he believed he was a woman.
I'm sorry about all the shit you've had.

So basically your theory is that mothers of sons will always put them first. As a mother of sons:

I don't worship them
I don't let them into women's changing rooms
I tell them about male violence
I tell them humans can't change sex

Anything else you secretly suspect me of doing!

Many of the best feminists I know have male children

having children is what made me a feminist (I mean, I broadly was before, but hadn't completely experienced the need for it, or examined my assumptions).

I am a mother of sons.

My sons continually show me how kids are kids and how ridiculous gender is as a concept, and how much sexism is entrenched in society - especially how we raise children. The same would be true I think if they were daughters.

I don't think that their being male makes any difference to my commitment to feminism - which is about me, not them.

I don't think men can become women either and I love my sons.

The two things are not related.

I don't understand your logic here. You have been given a hard time because the pro self ID trans side is vicious and brutal and most if all, anti women. That does not mean the anti self ID case is anti men, far from it.

Maybe stay and read for a while?

@DangerCat01 I kind of see what you're saying, but that would be like saying a woman who hasn't had kids can't be a feminist. I would call myself a "staunch" feminist, that doesn't mean I don't love the men in my life- sons, husband, father etc. They are good people, but it doesn't take away from the fact women have been discriminated against since day dot. I feel a lot of pressure to raise my boys "right" and be part of the solution, not the problem, I'm also acutely aware of the disadvantages they will face as a direct result of their sex (though not to the same degree as women, of course).

I sometimes feel like a "fraud" in that I call myself a staunch feminist but have had sons, I don't have a daughter to "mentor" and some would even say I'm a fraud for marrying etc etc. There is no perfect feminist.

You are entitled to your beliefs, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Hi OP, I'm a little confused but am hoping to understand a bit better. I think you are making two points, that mothers need to raise their boys to be feminists to give us a shot as effectively challenging the patriarchy and that you have personally suffered at the hands of 'feminism', having lost friendships and you sounds like you are feeling a bit blue.

Would this be fair to say? Please do correct or clarify, is like to engage with you on this.