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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What constitutes modern day feminism

635 replies

katienlisa552 · 05/04/2020 10:45

What does it mean to be a feminist in the 21st century? When I and indeed the members of my family who I would consider to be feminist were growing up it was about fighting for equal rights for women such as equal pay and better representation of women in high powered jobs and given that the Labour Party has yet again elected a male leader says to me that there is still along way to go. However I and my family members find ourselves becoming more and more uncomfortable with what some might call the more extreme side of feminism.

I fear that certain views of feminism are allowing a rather unhealthy and quite hateful form especially in relation to trans rights. As a member of the lgbt community and although I’m not trans myself I do have friends who are and I also volunteer for a local charity who support and offer counselling to trans teenagers. I see first hand the damage done by the attitudes promoted and supported by some sections of the feminist community dressed up under the guise of ‘free speech’. The trans right issue is a complex one. I don’t think children should be allowed to transition or be given hormone blockers to prevent puberty because I’m not convinced a child has the maturity to make those kind of life changing decisions although that doesn’t mean I don’t believe that children can’t be trans because I see it everyday through my work with the charity and it’s a fact of great shame that at least 70% of young trans have self harmed or tried to commit suicide because of the prejudice they face.

The biggest contentious issue appears to be that of self indentification. I fail to see how it erodes my rights as a women if a trans person chooses to self identify and personally I find the notion that people chose to self identify because they want to harm others somewhat far fetched. Yes I accept that there are some sick indivuals that do this but the fact is the majority of sex offenders offend as men not men who are self identifying as female or the other wan around. I remember mixed sex changing rooms when I was growing up and I don’t remember a vast increase in sexual assay because of it.

Now despite being accused of it on here several times by people who hide behind the guise of feminism to attack anyone who dares to defend trans rights as someone who condones sexual assault I do not in fact as a surviour of sexual assault I find that extremely offensive. Anyone trans or otherwise who commits any kind of sexual assault deserves to be castrated and strung up. Maybe one way around the shared changing room or toilet issue would be to have single cubicles or toilets as we do at our charity so it doesn’t matter who uses them because there’s only u on there. As a parent and someone who works with children who have been absued I can totally understand the argument for parents wanting to know who the child is sharing a changing room with. Personally I wouldn’t allow my son or my nieces who I regularly look after our without a grown up until they were of teenager age and then allow in groups of friends.

I’ve no doubt that this post will either be ignored or removed as mums net seems to remove anything that resembles some who supports the rights of trans people but just as the people who use feminism to try and erode or stand Agasint trans rights I to have the right to express my opinion.

The debate of feminism and trans issues needs to be less toxic and more about open discussion and tolerance of others opinions will allowing healthy debate because trans people are people and have the same right to be heard and to be given the same freedoms as any other member of society. Do I think that all feminists are transphobic absolutely not and neither do I believe that all of the trans community min are good people. There’s good and bad in everyone and every group of society but since when is that a justification for the discrimination of a whole part of society

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BatShite · 07/04/2020 00:32

You’re not asking ‘what constitutes feminism?’, you’re telling gender critical feminists that they’re doing feminism wrong because they don’t believe that TWAW.

Yup.

The part where you accuse MN mods of removing anything 'pro trans' is just bizarre and untrue too.

I seriously hate 'anti-self id' morphing into 'anti-trans' as they are NOT the same thing. Hell, my cousin is transsexual and is anti self ID, as would most rational people be. Its massively open to abuse, no matter how many people claim they cannot see how it can possibly be abused, its blatantly obvious to most, and has happened, multiple times.

Thinkingabout1t · 06/04/2020 17:05

the core idea that you can feel like a woman is kind of insulting to the core of feminism, when feminism is about fighting for people who are discriminated against because they are seen as women by a misogynistic and dismissive world

TerfMcGee, you're so right. It's obvious but constantly overlooked.

I can understand why TRAs endlessly peddle the myth about their exceptional vulnerability to violence and suicide, even though it has been disproved by the statistics. I just don't understand why other people (pretend to) believe it.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 06/04/2020 15:01

If your feminism prioritises the internal identifications of men over the material conditions of women then you are not a feminist
Damn right. Thank you Sarah Fields (& R0!)

terfmcgee · 06/04/2020 14:10

@midgebabe I really like how you phrased this, and I think it's very civil. From what I've seen on the internet, with a statement as uncontroversial as even this, you would still be called a terf and harassed for something that is so reasonable and polite. I feel like we are edging into some weird 1984 territory with this shit. How could a person saying sex and gender are different literally be hate speech?

RedDogsBeg · 06/04/2020 13:37

This from Cllr Sarah Fields speech:

About three years ago, not long after I was first elected, I was contacted by a woman in Leeds, for advice. Her six year old daughter had been verbally attacked and then subjected to a violent outburst by a 17 year old male who had been allowed to join a local girls group as a helper. This was because he said he identified as a female. What had this child done? She had asked him if he was a boy. And then this six year old girl had been made to stand alone in front of the entire group and apologise to him.

is so chilling and sinister, it is straight out of the totalitarian dictatorship playbook and yet we are continuously told this is such a benign ideology, stuff like this is a one-off extreme example, don't tar or dismiss trans and the ideology that underpins it by these exceptional examples. They are NOT extreme one offs, if they were all collated into one list it would make War & Peace look like a short story.

R0wantrees · 06/04/2020 12:59

I mean, you never see people talking about trans males and their rights, and I truly believe that is because they are born female.

We have had examples of females who identify as trans asserting/taking about rights. Often in context of demanding the removal of references to woman/mother/female from women's health provision especially pregnancy, menstruation & gyny cancer.

Recently in UK a mother who identifies as trans man has been fighting in the courts not to be recorded as such & to effect significant change to birth certificates.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3839264-Freddy-McConnell-appeal-today-Transman-who-wants-to-be-registered-as-their-childs-father-Title-edited-by-MNHQ

There are also prominant transactivists who are female eg Stephen Whittle, James Morton, Jake Graf in UK

In US, Chase Straglio (lawyer ACLU):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3862171-Dont-treat-trans-athletes-as-girls

terfmcgee · 06/04/2020 12:39

I also think it's okay for me to say, quite frankly, that for me feminism is about protecting the rights of people who are born female. That does not mean that I do not think people born male who reject the gender roles thrust upon them and want to express themselves in certain ways deserve violence or discrimination. I do not. I just simply do not think it makes them female, and I think the core idea that you can feel like a woman is kind of insulting to the core of feminism, when feminism is about fighting for people who are discriminated against because they are seen as women by a misogynistic and dismissive world, it's not about people seen as men by the world who want to be seen as women. I think there is so much wrong about this, I honestly see it as another example of catering to male comfort above all else. I mean, you never see people talking about trans males and their rights, and I truly believe that is because they are born female. Nobody is out there talking about how these people absolutely deserve to be in male prisons with a bunch of psychopaths who will quite frankly rape them the second they find out they have a vagina. I know that sounds graphic, but it's just frankly true.

R0wantrees · 06/04/2020 12:37

terfmcgee
Many people new to these discussions have found this thread useful:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

terfmcgee · 06/04/2020 12:31

Self-ID laws would allow for actual men with no interest in being transgender to say they are women and gain access to women's spaces. It is incredibly naive to assume in a world filled with terrible violent misogyny that women need no common sense safe spaces from men. I think that trans people actually need safe spaces from these people as well, but these are two conflicting sets of rights. Google Karen White. I'm new and American by the way, have always considered myself liberal, and I'm of the opposite opinion of the person above. I am starting to become very uncomfortable with "liberal" ideology's blind indifference to women being harassed for expressing viewpoints that make certain people feel uncomfortable. Well, quite frankly, their viewpoints are making me feel very minimized. I think we can both be heard though. I am choosing ultimately to stop trying to make everyone else feel super comfortable while I feel completely uncomfortable and walked all over though. Biological women do deserve to be a protected class. All over the world, we are trampled upon, and more and more progressive thinkers seem kind of fine telling us to be quiet when it suits their needs. (I am absolutely not conservative either btw, I just now fully identify as feminist first and foremost.)

RedDogsBeg · 06/04/2020 12:04

Brilliant speech by Cllr Sarah Fields, thanks for posting R0wantrees.

On the subject of Yorkshire puddings, no-one could ever come close to my Gran for sheer perfection, hers were phenomenal.

Thinking about her and the other women who have shaped my life is one of the things that makes me so damn cross about this TRA bullshit and the desperate cheerleaders of it. These women's lives were not based on a feeling in their head, no man could ever or would ever be able to nor want to live their lives nor achieve what they did whilst facing the oppression brought about by the sex they were born. It's fucking insulting to reduce their womanhood to some vague feelings, lipstick, dresses, long swishy hair and painted nails and that is why I will never accept that a man can become a woman either just by saying so or even after surgery and hormones.

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 06/04/2020 11:30

Thanks ROwantrees

Sending strength to you @MadgePickup Flowers

Thinkingabout1t · 06/04/2020 11:24

So to be clear: men in this city [Leeds] can access a woman’s changing facility, toilet, leisure facility or support group or service – anywhere they are vulnerable, traumatised, undressed or asleep - because men might at some point feel like they are something which the council says is indefinable, but might mean he once wore something which may or may not be something a woman might also wear. Well, women fought for those spaces and they are not this council’s to give away.

Sarah Fields joins my list of present-day feminist heroines. Luckily, this is steadily increasing.

R0wantrees · 06/04/2020 11:22

MrsDoylesTeaBags All thanks are due to Cllr Sarah Fields

In looking for her brilliant & inspiring speech I realised she has been dealing with significant personal health pressures whilst still advocating for women, girls & Safeguarding.
(I was away from the board for a while so unaware)

@MadgePickup Flowers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3747221-Hi-I-m-a-Leeds-Councillor

HorseRadishFemish · 06/04/2020 11:21

1 thank you ROwantrees for posting that exceptional speech.

2 so happy to hear that I'm not the only one who has conversations with myself.

koshkatt · 06/04/2020 11:21

Juts caught up with this thread.

Is it wrong that by fuckers made me laugh out loud?

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 06/04/2020 11:12

It would be lovely Floral, like OneEpisode I've not really thought much about feminism for years, and I was so strongly outspoken as a teenager, but life does shit to you doesn't it?

Mumsnet and FWR has been a revelation to me, and seeing women share thoughts and feeling I have has made me feel stronger. I'm not as elouquent or knowledgable as may posters but I have learned a lot.

It would be lovely to just be able to discuss what feminism means to us and how the lives we live shape our beliefs, but it always amazes me that like you say, by focusing our concern on one group we're seen as being hateful to those not included in that group.

Thinkingabout1t · 06/04/2020 11:07

trans people are people and have the same right to be heard and to be given the same freedoms as any other member of society

They have the same rights as everyone else. They are demanding extra rights that infringe women’s and children’s rights. They have been granted some of their demands already, and we want our rights back.

I’m coming to this too late to have read all the hundreds of comments. But that cannot be stated too often.

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 06/04/2020 11:04

If you cannot define women, then you cannot defend them. Amen

Thank you for sharing that brilliant speech R0wantrees

FloralBunting · 06/04/2020 11:04

I mean, I do love that the women here can turn a sows ear into a silk purse, and this thread is another joy, but I do want to reiterate something I said at the start of the thread - wouldn't it be brilliant, on a message board with a feminist focus, to be able to fully discuss the question 'What does it mean to be a feminist in modern times?' without it being a just a fig leaf to cover up a big stream of misogynist derailing?

How fab would it be to explore all the things relating to that question that are about women's issues alone, the problems, the solutions, the hopes we all have, the disagreements? Without having to caveat the unashamed focus on women? I did think I might start a thread with that aim, but we all know it would be monstered within 50 posts.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 06/04/2020 10:59

Brilliant

Datun · 06/04/2020 10:44

That speech ❤️

R0wantrees · 06/04/2020 10:39

I have been ignoring feminism for decades. It was the misogyny behind trump’s election, and fwr that meant I har to remove my blinkers.

Many women's eyes have been opened in recent years & this is only continuing . They aren't going to be closed.

Ive just shared Cllr Sarah Field's brilliant speech from the Leeds meeting about Declaration of Women's Rights on a current relevent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3872388-Richard-Firth-suspended-from-Green-Party

It answers the OP's headline question exceptionally well I think.

""Good afternoon everyone and welcome.

Firstly I’d like to thank everyone here for coming today, our panel and the Leeds Spinners for inviting me to Chair.

Our brilliant panel of academics will be speaking today about the Declaration of Sex Based Rights. But by way of introduction I am going to talk a little bit about Leeds and why I’m here.

So, I just want to start off by thanking the many women on the Mumsnet Feminism boards. You are a constant strength and inspiration.

About three years ago, not long after I was first elected, I was contacted by a woman in Leeds, for advice. Her six year old daughter had been verbally attacked and then subjected to a violent outburst by a 17 year old male who had been allowed to join a local girls group as a helper. This was because he said he identified as a female. What had this child done? She had asked him if he was a boy. And then this six year old girl had been made to stand alone in front of the entire group and apologise to him.

And I couldn’t get my head around this. So I began to do some research. And this was how I found my way to gender critical thinking and radical feminism.
And these are the following statements I’d like to make:

Every single person on the planet is unique. And I don’t care what they wear. And I don’t care who they love or have sex with, as long as they are consenting adults.

There is no such thing as living as a woman. We are women. And it is our female biology which makes us women. It is our sex. And biological sex is observable in every single cell in our bodies: it is a physical, material and biological fact. And our sex is what makes us a class. Our sex which makes us uniquely vulnerable to male violence. Our sex which means we bear the entire burden of reproductive labour. The structural oppression which women face as a class is because of their sex. And that is why all women need legal recourse to separate and sex segregated spaces.

It is simply not ethical to categorise males as females based on their subjective feelings. To do so means the female sex no longer has legal protections or legal meaning and is instead reduced to destructive, regressive gender stereotyping.

If you cannot define women, then you cannot defend them.

Which brings me to Leeds City Council, which famously prevented a meeting here last year to discuss changes to the Gender Recognition Act. When the WPUK meeting was cancelled I read the email from a Labour Councillor and then I read the flurry of replies and actions that not once asked for clarification or any other viewpoints - just this blind acceptance of a hateful narrative – and it became clear to me that it’s become a virtue to dismiss, intimidate and silence women.

That meeting was to discuss proposed changes to legislation and the government’s consultation. Its purpose was not to tell Trans people what is best for them, but to tell politicians and law makers what is best for women.The vast majority of those who ask questions about Self-ID are lifelong left leaning, are lesbians, trade unionists, LGB allies and of all faiths and none. These accusations we face - transphobes, bigots, TERFs, religious fundamentalists, hate preachers - are utter nonsense. And I’ve had enough.And I must say I absolutely refute in the strongest terms any accusations of homophobia against gender critical women. A huge number of them are lesbians. And I stand with my lesbian sisters. Just as I’ve always done for years of solidarity with the LGB community. And since the woke brigade of word salad identity politics seems to love a good cliché, I’ll throw in a mention of my magnificent gay best friend and godfather to both my children.

Leeds City Council has brought in Self-Identification. Anyone can change their sex, or “gender marker” as they call it, across all council services and departments by completing a short online form.

When I asked, under FOI, for the Equality Impact Assessments I was told they didn’t do any. When I asked, under FOI, how this might impact sex segregated services and spaces I was told Leeds City Council does not have any such spaces or services. When I asked, under FOI, for a comprehensive list of women’s and men’s clothes, as cross dressing is specifically defined in council policy as a protected characteristic, I was told no such list exists. When asked to define a woman, they said no such definition exists.

So to be clear: men in this city can access a woman’s changing facility, toilet, leisure facility or support group or service – anywhere they are vulnerable, traumatised, undressed or asleep - because men might at some point feel like they are something which the council says is indefinable, but might mean he once wore something which may or may not be something a woman might also wear.

Well, women fought for those spaces and they are not this council’s to give away.

It is absurd, it is dangerous and millions of women across the country are saying we have had enough. You cannot identify into an oppressed class because you cannot identify out of an oppressed class. And women are uniquely oppressed across the planet: reproductive health and autonomy, Female Genital Mutilation, violence, rape, child marriage, no right to vote, death in childbirth, post-natal illness, denied access to education, lower wages, chemical contraception, sex trafficking, surrogacy, pornography, prostitution and objectification.

I’ve had women in prisons and post-prison services in Leeds who have contacted me in fear and despair because they are confined with men who threaten them with rape, assault them, repeatedly expose their so called female penises and taunt them about playing the system and flushing their hormones down the toilet.

Our statistics will be skewed and we will lose a tool of analysis that provides us with the ability to challenge the very inequalities for which sex based provisions and quotas were created.

And of course there is a wider underbelly of misogyny in Leeds. The so called managed zone of prostituted, emaciated and addicted women is our flagship. In the last few months I’ve visited Holbeck twice, once at night where I observed several men out on the street openly watching pornography in their cars as women stumbled to them to be used and discarded for a fiver. During the day I was approached by punters three times in 10 minutes while simply standing by a car for some fresh air at 2pm. We are spending hundreds of thousands of pounds so men can buy the addicted bodies of the most vulnerable women in the city. Men know what a woman is in Holbeck.

I’m often asked how I would feel if I was born in the wrong body. And I say, I’ve been feeling like that every single day for as long as I can remember. You only have to go into a shop, turn on the TV, open a magazine, click on the internet and women are assaulted with GET A BIKINI BODY, 12 WEEKS UNTIL YOUR CHRISTMAS PARTY BODY, GET THE BODY YOU DREAM OF, THE BODY OF SOMEONE 20 YEARS YOUNGER, THE BODY YOU DESERVE. Botox, surgery, hair removal, Photoshop, permanent makeup, designer vagina. We get it.

I don’t think all men are rapists. I don’t think all men are intrinsically violent, creepy or degenerate. God knows I love my dad and my brother and my dear nine year old son. But 98% of sexual violence is committed by men. And there is no way to tell the good ones from the bad ones. There never will be. That’s why we need our spaces and services and boundaries, for our privacy, our dignity and our safety. It’s why we need to preserve the social norms which generally prevent men from entering our spaces and preserve our confidence to challenge men who do so. Bad men will do anything to gain access to women and girls. That’s why every institution in the world attracts those who will use power and access to abuse us. If they do it in schools, the care system, churches and families then they will sure as hell do it in prisons, toilets, refuges and changing rooms. They already are.

In terms of protecting females from a significant minority of dangerous males, these reasons don’t cease to operate when males self-identify as women. And self-identification removes any gatekeeping, safeguarding or requirement for any man to do anything other than complete a cursory administrative process via an online form.

I’m truly sorry for any man who feels imprisoned and tortured by masculinity. But that is something for men to deconstruct, to dismantle and to overthrow. And there are men doing it. There are transsexuals and cross dressers and allies against the male stereotypes which damage everyone. But it is not the moral duty of women to facilitate that. If your feminism prioritises the internal identifications of men over the material conditions of women then you are not a feminist. In a world of structural and systematic oppression, and an epidemic of male violence, we owe it to women and to the legacy of every feminist who has fought before us, to stand for ourselves.
Thank you."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3595007-Leeds-Councillor-thanks-Mumsnet-FWR-in-gender-critical-speech

Flowers & thanks to Sarah Fields

MrsDoylesTeaBags · 06/04/2020 10:30

MrsSnippyPants I like what you did there. Grin

Incidentally I went to bed thinking about Roast Dinner with Yorkshire Puddings and Quantum Leap and now I'm thinking about Sweet Yorkshire Puddings and Quantum Leap.

MrsSnippyPants · 06/04/2020 10:25

Can I say that by mentioning I was making Yorkshire puddings to go with my roast chicken, I am proud that I have widened the bandwidth of what it means to be a Yorkshire pudding?

Grin
Michelleoftheresistance · 06/04/2020 09:54

And I'm now craving toad in the hole, you rotten lot, and I have no sausages.

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