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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men pushing in in queues and not social distancing.

741 replies

HeIenaDove · 03/04/2020 20:32

I know in the scheme of things this is only small but its the bloody entitlement that gets to me.

When the new Coronavirus Bill came in last Thursday two men used the 2 m gap to try to push in front while i was queuing outside Tesco.

Re, social distancing , i try i really try to stay 2m from people at all times on the rare occasions but the amount of men who walk right next to me or towards me KNOWING that i will move.

This afternoon was the final straw Queuing outside Sainsburys observing the 2 m rule i had to wait until the queue moved to where the trolleys were . There was no way i could get to them BEFORE queuing and observe the 2m rule so i had to wait in the queue before i got to them. I leant across to put my pound in the slot and the FOUR men queuing behind me jumped the queue by moving along in front.

Im so fed up with the entitlement Every time its been a man EVERY TIME. Ive not seen this from women at all .

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 07/04/2020 13:53

Well you brought it up goose as an analogy and it's a shit one.

Somehow I thought people would apply it to the actual topic of discussion - I didn't really think about it that much, I just picked something else people had been talking about.

Clearly all we know about this question are people's personal, limited impressions.

TinselAngel · 07/04/2020 13:24

Slightly in the horrors about Bewilderness being lectured about feminism on here TBH. Shock

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 12:24

Obviously I'm speaking as a relatively privileged westerner with full civil and legal rights. I might feel very differently if I lived in India or in Saudi Arabia, for example ( although I can still feel the primal rage from a distance) where 'patriarchy' is a very real & meaningful thing

I recommend Pregna Patel's speech (linked above)

Gronky · 07/04/2020 12:18

There’s a hiccup in the heroism of sisterhood in 1979 when Margaret Thatcher became the country’s first female prime minister

Personally, I consider her accomplishment even greater than it would have been for a female Labour leader (still waiting). Her rise to the leadership demonstrated equal parts of confidence and brilliance.

Justhadathought · 07/04/2020 12:10

It's obvious that I'm new to all this. And my first foray onto the feminism board was not my finest hour. I am not well educated, or particularly articulate. I just wanted to say that your posts this morning are exactly what I would want to say and exactly how I feel. Thank you 👏👏👏👏

You are welcome!

Anger is not the destination, in my book, even though it does tend to be an inevitable stage on the journey. It is not a good place in which to get stuck.

Obviously I'm speaking as a relatively privileged westerner with full civil and legal rights. I might feel very differently if I lived in India or in Saudi Arabia, for example ( although I can still feel the primal rage from a distance) where 'patriarchy' is a very real & meaningful thing.

But getting angry about some insensitive men in supermarket queues, and then using that to generalise about all men, and then turning that into a form of feminine virtue. No thanks!

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 12:02

I don't think I've ever heard Pragna Patel say anything that wasn't worth giving serious consideration to.

Yes.
It was a brilliant speech.
Important

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 12:01

Brad Blitz welcomes Women's Liberation 2020 (1 February 2020)
(As Head of the Department of Education Practice and Society at UCL Institute of Education, he welcomed Women's Liberation 2020 on behalf of the University.)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 07/04/2020 12:00

I don't think I've ever heard Pragna Patel say anything that wasn't worth giving serious consideration to.

(Is a bit of a fangirl)

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 11:59

Joan McAlpine MSP at Women's Liberation 2020 (1 February 2020)

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 11:59

Pragna Patel at Women's Liberation 2020 (1 February 2020)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 07/04/2020 11:58

I can't say that I really much care whether or not specific individuals who get huffy in the face of class analysis "identify" as feminists or not. This is not unrelated to the fact that I think "identify as" as a concept is bollocks in general.

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 11:58

Maya Forstater at Women's Liberation 2020 (1 February 2020)

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 11:57

Julie Bindel at Women's Liberation 2020 (1 February 2020)

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 11:55

Here are some of the speeches.
Its good to be stirred (not just from slumber!)

Kiri Tunks at Women's Liberation 2020 (1 February 2020)

FloralBunting · 07/04/2020 11:52

Isn't it just.

Perhaps feminism doesn't need a sanitized rebrand just yet after all.

Datun · 07/04/2020 11:46

Wow R0 that's stirring stuff.

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 11:27

If feminism doesn't re-evaluate itself and define itself anew ( certainly in the western societies in which equal legal & civil rights have already been achieved) it risks becoming an historical artefact - like the WRP or the SWP - that people cling to for comfort.

Its already happening & internationally.

February 2020 Lynne Walsh for Morning Star on 2020 Women's Liberation Conference at UCL (organised by WPUK, FiLIA & Southall Black Sisters)

'Women’s liberation bursts back onto the scene
Almost 1,000 women packed out University College London at the weekend to discuss their sex-based rights as part of a rejuvenated and growing movement.'
(extract)
S been a long time since this country has really witnessed the phenomenon known as the Women’s Liberation Movement.

Glance at a timeline helpfully provided by the British Library, and you’ll see the launch of the contraceptive pill in 1961, real liberation made possible by the hard slog of campaigners, as was the Abortion Act of 1967. A year later, the Ford factory workers at Dagenham won equal pay.

Those burning issues, plus demands for equal job opportunities and free 24-hour nurseries, formed the agenda for the first meeting of the WLM in 1970, at Ruskin College, Oxford. More than 600 women attended: a few men ran the creche.

Subsequent years saw a flurry of historic victories and campaigns which improved women’s lives in fundamental ways.

In 1971, the first women’s refuge opened. In 1973, Britain’s first rape-crisis centre was set up. Two years later came the Sex Discrimination Act. In 1970, the renowned Southall Black Sisters started campaigning.

There’s a hiccup in the heroism of sisterhood in 1979 when Margaret Thatcher became the country’s first female prime minister.

In spite, rather than because of that, the movement surged on, and the prevailing vibe of the 1980s could be summed up as anti-Thatcherism. The woman at the top was no sister of ours.

In 1981, a group of women marched from Wales to a little-known RAF base at Greenham Common, where they stayed to protest, scale fences to dance atop the silos and ululate through the night, unnerving squaddies guarding the base.

1984 saw Women Against Pit Closures holding together their communities, feeding thousands, and often joining violent picket lines when their miner menfolk had been arrested.

In 1987 Diane Abbott became the first black woman to be elected to the House of Commons.

The British Library’s helpful timeline ends in 1988. The years between then and now have been harsh, with cuts to the public and third sectors. Women are bearing the brunt of so-called austerity, refuges and rape-crisis centres have closed, and childcare has fallen victim to privatisation.

Women’s informal discussions invariably cite one big topic: exhaustion. Those who struggle to work, to care both for children and elderly relatives, and to battle on with their activism in political parties and unions are more knackered than most.

Yet on Saturday, at a central London university, there was precious little fatigue as delegates arrived for the Women’s Liberation 2020 conference.

Nearly 1,000 women, and a few men, packed out University College London, for a day of inspiring speakers, practical sessions and a vast amount of shared expertise and experience. (continues)

In the packed hall, Pragna Patel, co-founder of Southall Black Sisters, helped kick-start the day, telling the crowd: “What a hopeful moment in history we have reached as feminists — and I know you’re thinking ‘what is she talking about’?”

Her optimism sprung, she went on, “from the fact that, all over the world, women are leading an unmistakably secular resistance against tyranny, misogyny and oppression. There is a new kind of feminism stirring in the air … women are on the rise, demanding a new kind of feminist citizenship, based not on identity but political values.

“It is exciting because it feels different … waves of ordinary, marginalised and poor women are rising up to demand economic equality and justice, and to prevent their leaders from ripping up well-crafted constitutions born out of long and painful struggles for freedom.”

On the minus side, said Patel, “we haven’t yet found a way of getting rid of the cul-de-sac of identity politics [which] muzzles voices of dissent from within. If we are not careful, we will find ourselves sliding towards regressive politics, that reinvigorates patriarchy and inequality whilst appearing to be progressive.” (continues)

Journalist and campaigner Julie Bindel addressed particularly younger women at the event, “for whom things are hellish right now, but also full of possibilities.

“There are some lessons we can take from the past, but we must not hark back to the past. We must move on, as any political movement must.”

This was not a revival per se, she said: “We have always had a women’s movement. But we’ve seen that, in the past couple of decades, young women who would describe themselves as feminists got dragged into the neoliberal politics of the individual, where they dismiss any necessity of collectivism, where they would not have it that focusing on ridiculous, meaningless identities would get them absolutely nowhere.

“Identity politics, without the politics, is what we’ve got now.”

Closing the conference was WPUK co-founder Kiri Tunks, paying tribute to staff at UCL, “for demonstrating a commitment to academic debate and women’s rights.”

WPUK had been formed fairly recently, she said, “and we know that there are many groups and many individuals who have been campaigning for far longer than us, and we want to thank you for what you have done and what you continue to do.

“This conference is not the first word, or the last word, or the only word. Think back to wins of the late ’60 and ’70s, the dramatic changes to women’s education, economic independence, aspirations for our lives and our relationships. These things are now just not under threat, many have already been rolled back. We are alert to these threats and we ready to step up to defend what has been won and to fight for more.

“We are going to need all your strength and fire in the days to come. It’s down to all of us. This is the movement; we are the movement — let’s move.”
morningstaronline.co.uk/article/womens-liberation-bursts-back-scene-0

womansplaceuk.org/conference-womens-liberation-2020/

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/04/2020 10:55

How is it if women do something anti feminist, that they are excused because they are victims of patriarchy eg have been raised around certain ideas, their views of what is and isn't acceptable are shaped by the patriarchy and yet we expect men and boys to be able to break free of those very same ideas and social concepts and to tear down the patriarchy?

In essence, how come you think.men are capable of thinking outside of the influence or patriarchy but you don't think women can do the same?

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 07/04/2020 10:46

stranger

Yeah, I don’t think that way and i know a lot of people don’t but that it the takeaway for some people

I know just isnt saying thats everyone on FWR, personal experience has shown me that there are a lot of different Views even from people who ‘agree’

NiteFlights · 07/04/2020 10:45

I wish the patriarchy would re-evaluate itself and define itself anew Wink

R0wantrees · 07/04/2020 10:42

as i saw this thread - I thought" People are feeling bored and frustrated with the lock-down...and using it to vent their own self righteousness

I have had similar thoughts.

Strangerthantruth · 07/04/2020 10:40

"man-hating, women are innocent and virtuous and without personal agency or responsibility schtick is not for me...and it is exactly what puts many people off from labelling or identifying themselves as a 'feminist"

What?

Comicshadows · 07/04/2020 10:14

Justhadathought

It's obvious that I'm new to all this. And my first foray onto the feminism board was not my finest hour. I am not well educated, or particularly articulate. I just wanted to say that your posts this morning are exactly what I would want to say and exactly how I feel. Thank you. 👏👏👏👏

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 07/04/2020 10:01

Im awake now (just)

I’d argue with the person who called me Arguementative

But I can’t be arsed

I had a beautiful sourdough baby last year but i had to kill it because I’m crap at making the actual bread

I might do another one when this is over because in January i was thinking of getting a breadmaker...THAT didn’t happen obviously. And we might get a portable pizza oven so we can do sourdough pizza

And I forgot to make the yorkies...I’ll try and get round to it today, you sprinkle parmesan on the top as they go in the oven

Justhadathought · 07/04/2020 09:58

I tell you what, and I’m just floating it out there as an idea, let’s say we call it the patriarchy

How about not......It has become far too much of a cliche.......and belongs to a previous age.

If feminism doesn't re-evaluate itself and define itself anew ( certainly in the western societies in which equal legal & civil rights have already been achieved) it risks becoming an historical artefact - like the WRP or the SWP - that people cling to for comfort.

We are all human beings. Some of us are female and some of us are male. Biology is real and has impacts on behaviour. Male and female chemistry is different. Males and females, like all other creatures on the earth, have different biological functions - which tends to extend to different kinds of roles.

However, what makes humans different is the ability for consciousness, agency and personal responsibility: the potential to modify our instincts and urges and to channel them in different ways.This possibility exists for both males and females.

"Patriarchy' is such a blunt tool - and as an automatic stock phrase has had its day.