Please can we talk about using the name Karen as an insult?

I think one difference was that Alf Garnet, although fictional, was a very specific, distinctive and recognisable individual. whereas 'Karen's' behaviour and even appearance seem to change In order to represent whatever prejudices people have against middle aged 'uppity women'. So any woman over 45 can be her.

I'm thinking of some sitcoms from when I was growing up. Two infamous ones were Love Thy Neighbour, which was awful, and Till Death Us Do Part, which was not. Both featured older male central characters that didn't have a single redeeming feature. They were openly racist, xenophobic bigots. Eddie Booth was instantly forgettable, but Alf Garnett became synonymous with racism in the 1970s and beyond. Nobody called Alf took offence.

He was the personification of a set of attitudes that hung over from the 1960s and Enoch Powell. He was also a proud West Ham fan, and supposedly a typical representative of the East London football fan. Warren Mitchell would even pop up in character on the odd occasion that West Ham made it to a Cup Final. Imagine that now - a character famous for denigrating black people, Pakistanis and Indians on prime sports programmes. People were able to make the distinction between the grotesque caricature and normal West Ham/football fans back then. Why not now? We didn't have memes back then, but if we had, he would have been one.

They don’t though. They make fun of men for being ‘useless’ and oh it’s so funny and he’s so silly and then a woman comes and clears up the mess he’s made. ‘Oh he’s such a womaniser harhar’ etc. Not to mention most of their behaviour is blamed on the mothers, wives and other women. These memes are damaging to women. They affect the way women are viewed and treated, they’re being blamed for corona virus, panic buying, global warming, people losing their jobs, racism etc.

If you think that’s ok then you’re entitled to but others are also entitled to think it’s a damaging ‘joke’.

@AlexaCrowe

If you want to try balance things out by making fun of the annoying habits common to many men, have at it.

I’d say that’s well covered on almost every tv sitcom made since 1970 though.

My mums Karen I always send them to her 🤦🏼‍♀️

Why is it Debbie downer though and not Darren downer?

Why was the man yelling at the fire service for shopping at Walmart called a Karen?

Go on any social media you can search (twitter and reddit are the two I can think of) and search for ‘Karen’ plenty of men doing things and being called a Karen. Why? Why aren’t they all daves? Or Eric’s?

With respect, I don’t think I annoy every person on the planet due to my age, gender and race. So I’m not taking it personally. I don’t complain excessively or think my demographics make me the police, judge and jury over everyone else around. (That’s what this meme is about for me.)

Just like I didn’t sleep with the football team in highschool so when people made “Debbie does Dallas” jokes I didn’t take it personally.

Nor did I care when “Debbie Downer” was a popular thing. and I don’t recall a single person every telling anyone to knock it off when those two annoying uses of my name were thrown around.

So I agree with Chiyo actually. If you aren’t calling the police because a black man is having a bbq in the park, or constantly demanding a manager to get a low wage earner fired for not kissing your ass ~it’s not about you even if your name is Sharon, Karen or whatever.

I know a Karen who is 40 and she is lovely
It really annoys me too!

I've seen this a lot and it's making me mad.

I'm going to start calling it out whenever I heAr this.

There's no equivalent man's name being used as far as I know 😡

Karen from Will & Grace.

Don't know about Karen but didn't Gordon Brown blame Sue after his run-in with Gillian Duffy?

You clearly don’t get it but whatever

I mean... right back at you...

just search twitter for #okkaren - it's rarely about the inconsiderate behaviour mentioned, and mainly people being mean about their mums.

Becky was always used to mean a working class Jewish girl, or at least that's how I always heard it used (by Jewish people, it's not a put down I don't think, more affectionate).
I think the problem is that you can't import these US memes to the UK, they don't translate. Karen in the UK is a very ordinary name for women over 40, so yes, using it as a shorthand to sneer at basically anything women in that age bracket might do is nasty and sexist.
And classist actually because everyone in the UK knows that Karen isn't a posh person's name.

Karen isn’t a person, it’s a collection of behaviours that have been embodied.

Embodied in a middle-aged woman. See why that's a problem?

@NathanNathan

Of course there is also this Aunt Flo:

Cool as you like, and with a great theme tune.

I always think of Karen from that tv show outnumbered. In that context it’s very fitting.

Whenever you call out ageism on Mumsnet (and this is only the latest manifestation) you'll get some people denying it. But it's still worth challenging I think, as a lot of this kind of stuff is done unconsciously and I think many people do think it over and take the point, even if they don't say anything.

If you have a problem with those behaviours being called out and shamed then that’s an issue with you

Sounds to me like 'Karen' is simply a dumping ground for everything that annoys people about other people. Whilst everyone is currently trying to be 'nice' to each other; virtual signalling about how caring, socially responsible, and compassionate they are......There is still the darker shadow of personal irritation, personality clashes and downright animosity towards the foibles of others. Human nature innit'. None are immune.

I completely get it, Chiyo. It's not complicated. But as you ought to be able to see from your own example, this is an American cultural stereotype that is now being imported in the UK where it doesn't really apply. And it is used so broadly that it just becomes "shitty older women" and then that becomes "shitty women".

I meant to add in my previous post. My friend from school who was called Karen was black. It's not only a white person's name.

Is there a correlation with being older meaning (for many of us anyway) that far fewer shits are given about what other people think of us, and the desire to rectify that by putting us back into our "place"?

Chiyo666

I think you miss the point. Those behaviors DO need to be called out.

However, I see these behaviors you have mentioned being done by a range of people. Younger, older, men and women. Let’s not kid ourselves that these anti-social behaviors are done by people who would fit a ‘Karen’ typing.

Yep I find it slightly offensive to see one name signifying anything negative too. I bet not one of those people would say it if their own name was Karen.

I didn’t realise being a feminist meant we couldn’t disagree with other females. Or is this some sort of weird echo chamber where we must follow a script of what is acceptable?

Chiyo. Spell check thinks it knows better.