Women who sell or exchange sex and coronavirus

Good point, Singa.

That doesn't surprise me at all, Singasonga. Nasty business but I suppose, if someone is used to doing it, they become blase about it.

More that if someone is used to watching it, they become all blase about it, I suspect.

early psychological analysis suggests the impact of this can be just as damaging as physical sexual abuse

Some of you may remember we discussed this in the context of a very vulnerable young woman, a girl really, doing cam work. She was such a sweet wee thing and as fragile as glass. It was heartbreaking.

early psychological analysis suggests the impact of this can be just as damaging as physical sexual abuse:

I can believe this.

That doesn't surprise me at all, Singasonga. Nasty business but I suppose, if someone is used to doing it, they become blase about it.

Interesting fact: one of the things that online sexual abuse investigators have found is that people (esp young people) are increasingly being approached and coerced into performing online like "cam girls," and early psychological analysis suggests the impact of this can be just as damaging as physical sexual abuse:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Falder

Just in case anyone was thinking that online sex work was safe and clean because clients can't touch performers...

As I expected she does consider "sex work" is work...

She should be concerned that no tax nor NI contributions are being made then.

It is vital that if women (or men) enter the sex trade then it is through choice rather than necessity

Ha ha ha ha ha

Gives a whole new meaning to working from home. They're also self employed so won't be paid. I suppose they can do live webcam stuff - I saw that on television once and it paid quite well. At times like this people have to be inventive and share ideas.

Imnobody4

A draft letter to send to Mps
notbuyingit.org.uk/take-action-prostitution/
Corona puts the already very vulnerable women in the sex trade at even more risk. Call on our elected representatives to take emergency steps, create a properly resourced plan and put it into action - urgently:

Suggestion of special funding comparable to homeless people. Not from a pro sex work point of view, but a pro women point of view

23/03/2020 21:33DidoLamenting

Done , although as my MP is a Lib Dem she no doubt views prostitution as a legitimate career

I sent the letter and got a reply today.

Reply commented that it is unlikely most of these women will be eligible for support under the schemes announced so far (well, yes, because they are not operating a legitimate business) so will need to rely on universal credit.

As I expected she does consider "sex work" is work.

It is vital that if women (or men) enter the sex trade then it is through choice rather than necessity

@florafox Also most sex workers are (like all workers) somewhere in the middle This is a pimp/punter lobby trope for which there is no evidence

Well flora-you are wrong-plenty of evidence-see for instance the recent report commissioned by the pimp punter Home Office and the Office of the South Wales Police and Crime Commissioner The nature and prevalence of prostitution and sex work in England and Wales today which points out the range of experience here.

The authors include the well-known pimp punter lobby member Prof. Marianne Hester (who signed a petition in favour of the Nordic model and also recently shared a platform with Julie Bindel ) also Andrea Matolsci who in her 2017 PhD thesis says (p108) I consider myself a feminist; I adhere to the ‘prostitution as abuse’ approach; and during much of this research I worked for a violence against women and girls charity which campaigns globally for the full criminalisation of the purchase of sex (alongside the decriminalisation and support of those selling sex)

Another pimp-punter author was Natasha Mulvihill whose 2019 paper Is it time to drop the term ‘prostitution’ from policy discourse? here also points out the wide spectrum of experience in prostitution.

Evidence a plenty you will find

The patronising bullshit of telling us to read Twitter to find out what prostitutes are saying 😂😂😂

‘

I'm a 39 year old woman, i'm neither a pimp nor a punter. The conspiracy theory nonsense needs to stop. I suggest looking at the twitter feeds of sex worker led projects (none of whom let bosses, third parties or clients) join and read what sex workers themselves are saying.

Why are you replying to me? That was someone else.

Indeed, DuLang. What kind of idiot attempts to use the fact that prostitution is inherently unsafe as "proof" that it's not a bad thing really?

That’s not a good reason to not prosecute Johns though, it’s an illustration as to how you can’t ever make prostitution safe and ethical so getting women OUT is the only viable option.

It’s not an ‘industry’, it’s not ‘work’ it’s ORGANISED CRIME AND SEXUAL ABUSE.

pushed for time

There are a numner of reasons I am not a fan of the Nordic model

I can completely understand why some feminists might think it is a good idea. I think it is a good idea. It just tends to put already vulnerable women and men) at further risk when put in practice.

I would also like to take some time to respond to posts advocating various sex worker unions and right organisations. These also sound like a good idea but I have very serious concerns about them, specifically regarding their connections to criminal cults and pimps.

I am likely to carve out a place for myself here where I am hated by all sides, but need to take that risk if I am to comment about the issues from my experience

I am running late now but will post later

Thanks for summing up why the Nordic model is dangerous

“ The very worst times for the street working women were when the local police (Paddington Green “tom squad”) launched one of their kerb crawling initiatives where they arrested punters. The women I worked with were genuinely terrified whenever this happened.

Their mundanely perilous activities became even more dangerous. There was no time to look in a car to see if the man was hiding a rope or a knife or giving off a funny vibe. No time to check the ugly mugs list. They had to just jump in the car quickly and hope for the best, because any time spent lingering mean that the punter was likely to just drive off. ”

A charity which states "sex work is work" is a charity which accepts and enables the harm of vulnerable women.

When I worked in HIV harm reduction charities and NHS projects all suddenly became very unjudgemental about people's sexual habits.

The main priority was to provide services to at risk people and to harvest data about sexual and drug use practices likely to facilitate HIV transmission.

If you want to attract sex workers to a project you do so by making it as friendly and accessible as possible.

Of course services that help women to exit prostitution are valuable and do a great job but there also needs to be services targetted at vulnerable women whether or not they want to exit.

Just as with cults, exploited people do not always know they are exploited.

Telling someone they are in a cult and need to be rescued will not help anyone.

Supportive services need to have a range of access options and services, everything from harm reduction through to exiting.

The diamorphne prescribing clinics run by Dr John Marks in Merseyside resulted in many women exiting sex work. They did this by giving the women safe, clean drugs, offering primary and specialist health services, offereing counselling, support and advocacy if requested. I know as I met may of these women as part of my work

Most women in support of these excellent services decided that they wanted to exit prostitution. They made the decision themselves once their lives were not engulfed by the dangerous chaos involved in getting money for drugs.

The women in London who I worked with, who were prescribed methadone, continued prositution, drug dealing, shoplifting and suffered terribly as a result

A charity which states "sex work is work" is a charity which accepts and enables the harm of vulnerable women.

Prostituted women need help to escape.

Excellent article here about the British system of prescribing diamorphine to addicts.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200326090056/www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/british-system-heroin-treatment-diamorphine-a9017771.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200326090056/www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/long-reads/british-system-heroin-treatment-diamorphine-a9017771.html

I worked in the NHS with sex workers at the time including sex workers addicted to heroin. I worked during a time of collective terror over AIDS and the “don’t die of ignorance” campaign

I would like to share a few thoughts re this.

Firstly, I do not think that anyone, anywhere would encourage desperately poor women (or men for that matter) who are addicted to drugs to be sex workers, regardless of whether they support legalisation, decriminalisation or abolition of the sex industry.

If people are concerned about the exploitation of the most vulnerable people in society in systems of prostitution then possibly the most important issue they need to divert their attention to is our current war on drugs and resulting insane and counterproductive drug policy.

Some of the sex workers I worked with personally were users of a needle exchange scheme and a drug dependency unit. These were definitely the most vulnerable and abused sex workers I encountered in my work. I also worked with women working in massage parlours, pornography, “gentlemen’s clubs”, escorting and women who were very highly paid with very few regular clients. All of these women were exploited in various ways. All of these women faced risks to their safety. However the exploitation and abuse experienced by street working, substance addicted women (many of whom were also supporting an addicted “boyfriend”) was unimaginable.

Heroin and crack addicted women typically sold sex on “the beat” in all weathers, in all hours in extremely unsafe situations. Several women I knew were murdered. Some women occasionally dealt drugs to pay for their own supply. I knew women who were “taxed” (robbed) by dangerous, psychopaths criminals, who not only stole their drugs and money but who subjected the women to prolonged sessions of sexual torture too horrific to describe here. I still suffer occasional sleepless nights when I wake up remembering the horrors of listening to a woman describe what had been done to her in such a situation.

The very worst times for the street working women were when the local police (Paddington Green “tom squad”) launched one of their kerb crawling initiatives where they arrested punters. The women I worked with were genuinely terrified whenever this happened.

Their mundanely perilous activities became even more dangerous. There was no time to look in a car to see if the man was hiding a rope or a knife or giving off a funny vibe. No time to check the ugly mugs list. They had to just jump in the car quickly and hope for the best, because any time spent lingering mean that the punter was likely to just drive off.

You may ask yourself why they just didn’t stop selling sex? The reason why is the same reason why all the sex workers in Ipswich carried on walking the beat when a serial killer was on the loose. The women were addicted to drugs, had experienced multiple and repeated emotional traumas resulting from drug addiction, sex work and related horrors and needed money to pay for their drugs to self medicate and also to eat.

I cannot understand why people cannot grasp this. On the news yesterday there were scary photos of commuters packed into trains at a time when getting on a train might cost them their health or even their life. Why do they do it? Because they need to pay the rent and put food on the table. Obviously

There is much more I would like to post about this subject. Pushed for time right now

The problem in the current terrifying situation is that the women most risk of being coerced into doing unsafe activities are the same population who could most easily be coerced previously, women who are addicted to drugs and who, for this and other reasons, are extremely poor and who cannot feed or look after themselves adequately.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned giving addicts drugs for free.

We have a long history of prescribing diamorophine (heroin) to addicts here. It is a very safe, low cost, highly effective method of keeping vulnerable people safe. It used to be known at the British Model.

I can post some of the literature about it later today. I think we need to start prescribing drugs to addicts as of yesterday.

Anyone concerned about the welfare of the most vulnerable people in society needs to turn their attention to this.

Back in a bit

I feel that I owe Anna at Click an apology for assuming based on one quote that she was supporting the same kind of agenda that Gaye is.

If you feel the need to take legal action against me at any point please message me the contact details for your legal representatives so that we can make formal arrangements to communicate, which will, of necessity, involve me knowing your real identity.

You realize that nasty little implied threats like this make the kind of person you are crystal clear, right?

I'm not reporting that comment to MNHQ because I want everyone reading to know what kind of people they're dealing with, and would suggest that anyone similarly inclined think of the big picture and allow the threat to remain so that everyone can see it.

There's no excuse for it. I work in the sex industry and have done for many years, doing dominatrix meets, webcam, phone and working on sex texting sites. I would definitley not meet anyone right now. However, I'm shocked by how many guys are still asking to meet me. I would say a good 70%!

Which Gaye tried to tell us wasn't happening. But of course it is, because some men are both very stupid and very selfish.

fkmmnt

I suggest looking at the twitter feeds of sex worker led projects (none of whom let bosses, third parties or clients) join and read what sex workers themselves are saying.

Twitter feeds? No thanks, I listen to my family members, friends and other working class women who have been prostituted as well as courageous women survivors and activists like Rachel Moran, Tricia Baptie and Mia de Faoite (to name only a few). No choosey choices there.

GayeDalton it's absolute shite that survival prostitution is the last resort before those women might commit crime. Women in prostitution are more likely to be targeted by criminals than to commit crimes instead of being prostituted. The numbers of women who commit crimes does not correlate with their opportunities to be prostituted as an alternative. All the women I know had their other, better opportunities taken away from them by men who profited from their exploitation.

when a person is left in such desperation, whatever sin they commit to survive is not upon them, but upon the society that allowed it to happen, and that society owes them whatever it takes to redress that

This might be the only thing you've said that I (and supporters of the Nordic model) agree with. I don't know how you leap from that to male suicide statistics though. Clutching at straws.

There's no excuse for it. I work in the sex industry and have done for many years, doing dominatrix meets, webcam, phone and working on sex texting sites. I would definitley not meet anyone right now. However, I'm shocked by how many guys are still asking to meet me. I would say a good 70%!

There is still plenty of work in the online sex industry, whether that's webcamming, selling video clips or even just joining a phone chat company.

Just putting this down in case anyone reading this thread wants a U.K. job right now:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52040539