Jonathan Ross supports Glinner

Stuck in the house yesterday and watched two recent documentaries on catch-up. The first one was about Tracy Edwards and her enormous struggle to pull together the first all-female round the world yacht crew ( Whitbread cup). BBC4 on IPlayer.

That was in 1989 - and to see the extreme negativity and hostility the crew were subject to, just 30 years ago was very sobering.......It might seem like we've come a long way in that time......but in many respects we haven't come much further at all.

The second was the programme about the 1970 Miss World Pageant " 'Beauty Queens & Bedlam'. BBC2 IPlayer. This particular pageant was the focus for two strains of activism. Obviously the fledgling Women's Liberation Movement, but also the anti-apartheid activists. Again - just looking back to what is living memory for many of us here is, once more, sobering.

To think that Zoe Williams, of The Guardian, on one hand, recently spoke of how "misogyny was at an all time high", but failed to see how much of what is going in in the name of trans rights is very much part of that.

What I really like is that Jonathan Ross has called out Billy Bragg & Jon Ronson for their bullying and policing of what other people think. I agree with a PP that Jon Ronson may have been influenced by liking his status as an important media figure. He mainly lives in the US now too and so is probably getting a one sided view. Also, I don't think he is interested in sport, which I think has been an important eye opener for many men. Not an excuse - just context.

Anyway, good for Jonathan Ross and Gary Lineker and even more for all those women who have put up with so much abuse to get us to the stage where the 'anything les than complete capitulation is transphobic' standpoint is beginning to be questioned

Good on him, and particularly great that Jonathan Ross has a big social media following.

I think there is a mind set amongst many that women now have liberation and are equal....so let's move on to the next oppressed group. Any oppression that one feels is put down to one's individuality, rather than to being a member of a group ( that group that is 'women'). the irony is that the left still campaigns for closing the gender pay gap, and has fully signed up to the 'Me Too' movement - as if neither of these issues were anything to do with the fact of one's sex.

Yes, I think that's true.

So one non GC person who I've spoken to in real life, brilliant thinking person, has a trans relative and she cried so that was awful and obviously I stopped the conversation and felt terrible. She seems to think there is 'more than we know, about biology and brains' and 'why is the conversation always about trans women?' etc, etc. I would have said we probably have the same views in many ways: left-leaning, remainer, atheist, feminist. But she is fifteen years younger than me...

The gay women? - well, one campaigned for trans on all women shortlists and if you try to discuss with her pulls out all the insults, won't listen, then says we need 'less heat more light' can't understand why women are upset about men in jail - 'would we feel the same about lesbians'?etc, etc. One posts constantly about Trans people being bullied or suicidal - she seemed surprised I was not keen on men in sports and asked if I thought 'segregation' should begin at infants, I said no, and she disappeared. Another has 'her/she' on her profile and, given the failure of all my other conversations, I daren't bring it up. :)

I'm kind of cross with myself for being so ridiculously pleased but this is where we are so cheers, Jonathan.

It's interesting to see who steps up and who doesn't. I've always liked the way Ross shows immense pleasure in his wife's success.

What tweet was he responding to? I can't see it.

i am soo interested in the types of people who get caught up in this. jon ronson and billy bragg come across as well-meaning, nice, liberal, and sympathetic to 'the underdog' - it feels like they have an absolute block or 'thing' when it comes to women and girls though- is it simple misogyny or 'othering' i dunno

I think there is a mind set amongst many that women now have liberation and are equal....so let's move on to the next oppressed group. Any oppression that one feels is put down to one's individuality, rather than to being a member of a group ( that group that is 'women'). the irony is that the left still campaigns for closing the gender pay gap, and has fully signed up to the 'Me Too' movement - as if neither of these issues were anything to do with the fact of one's sex.

Helmet, these people you know who are not GC? Is this just their attitude to trans stuff or is it the whole package? Would they be the sort of people who would, for example, insist on blue for boys and pink for girls etc?

Arghh the Broad City girls

I hope his next tweet on the subject is specifically about women and girls tho.

Ross and Jane describe themselves sceptics. Plus, in the past, he had a run in with Stonewall over some perceived homophobia apparently.

And he hasn't just liked a tweet or given a thumbs up, he's gone for it.

The tide truly is turning.

That's an interesting idea, fascinated.

I think for some men there is the 'why can't everyone just be nice, wahhh'.

I wonder if there's also an element of 'punish the uppity women who rejected me' going on.

I think it's in Lost at Sea which is a collection of journalism.

You can actually read it here: www.gq.com/story/robots-say-the-damnedest-things and I notice that he does mention that she's trans later on.

They don’t understand that we have our own definitional integrity as women not as broken men.

I have several female friends who are not GC. Largely they are non-deep thinkers who are keen to be nice, or/and have trans friends/children/family.
I also know 3 lesbian couples who seem to be completely and aggressively non GC. It's hard to explain.

I am an idiot.

Ok not literally

I think beta males desperately want to stay in the male camp so they take the lead on gatekeeping masculinity. Those that can’t be properly male - failed males - must be put in the women bucket. The failed males are lesser but not as lesser as women.

When we say your failed males don’t belong in our category they literally cannot compute.

Do you think it is something to do with Alpha v Beta males (for want of a better distinction.....)

I think the less confident male is likely to identify more with the trans woman as he secretly fears male violence too?

Jon Ronson's got a chapter in one of his books where he meets Martine Rothblatt

Which one was that in? I thought I'd read all of his books but I don't remember that. I read some of them a very long time ago though

Go wossy!

I know his family quite well of old and he has some seriously fiesty women to contend with. I bet they've been bending his ear about this too.

Me too. It tells me if they are a thinker or tribal.

Dsis is trying not to be gender critical because she’s very tribal (Labour Party through and through though not Corbynist). She’s getting there though. What niggled away at her was the Moral Maze episode from a few weeks ago. She was waiting to hear sensible arguments against Portillo and there weren’t any.

Jon Ronson's got a chapter in one of his books where he meets Martine Rothblatt who was spending millions to build an android version of her wife so that she would still have her around when she (the wife) died.

Not that the wife was ill or anything .

I was reading it with this weird sense of disconnect - there was no indication in the text that Martine was anything but female, but everything about it was screaming male. Even without a picture I was reading Martine as male while being told that she was female and I couldn't work out why.

I don't often post here, but I read loads. Wossy's tweet is brilliant, it might make more men think about this regressive gender ideology bullshit.