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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The immigration analogy for transwomen

201 replies

MrsCollinssettled · 15/03/2020 22:46

Did anyone see the article in Saturday's Telegraph magazine about Diana Thomas? Diana said "I use the immigration analogy because in the same way that immigrants bring to their host nation things from their own culture - food, music, whatever I think I can bring- or we can bring- something new and interesting to the female experience. And I absolutely don't deny the guy in me. I am not pretending I am not still him in many ways."

Diana believes that being female is all about the clothes (says she "has almost caught up on the 40 years of shopping she missed out on") and nurturing "I have earned my way for long enough, so yes, put a pinny round my neck and let me be a homemaker, please!"

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Strangerthantruth · 26/03/2020 11:57

More from Thomas. Lots about drama queening and hysteria, all because of the hormones you see. And will miraculously be the first human male ever to become female.

Mostly, as a customer, I’m called ‘madam’. The occasional cheery lady behind a till goes for ‘love’, or even ‘darling’. But I added a new one on a Saturday afternoon – one of those last, precious days of freedom – when a customer-services lady on the other end of the phone said, ‘No need to panic, my dove.’

I was in a proper tizz. I’d forgotten a laser-zapping session and stood to pay around £100 as a cancellation fee. The phone lady called the clinic, and then reported, ‘They say you’re very sweet so you can just rearrange the appointment and they won’t charge you a fee.’

Suitably charmed and relieved, I calmed down, but by Sunday morning I was getting frantic again. I was kneeling on the floor of Dad’s utility-room-cum-pantry, surrounded by supplies for his self-isolation.

The cans, packets and bottles piled up around me as I desperately tried to keep up with the trays being carried in from the Tesco van outside. ‘Don’t you fret, my dear,’ the kindly, middle-aged driver said, as he began to lend a hand. ‘We’ll soon get this sorted.’

Now, many an intelligent, independent, grown-up woman might bridle at being called ‘my dove’ or having a man very gently let her know that she’s becoming a touch hysterical, but not to worry because he’s going to make everything all right. But I am not one of them.

In the first place, I actually was fretting. I’ve always been prone to drama queening, and massive does of oestrogen don’t seem to have helped. It was deeply reassuring to have a soothing voice in my ear and a helping hand to sort everything out.

Secondly, I have learnt in recent years to recognise and be grateful for kindness when I see it, whether it is delivered in appropriately PC language or not. I value a warm heart over a woke dictionary any day.

And thirdly, no transwoman ever minds being the victim of everyday micro-sexism. After all, being treated like a woman is the proof that she has passed as one. And that is a pearl beyond price.

Likewise, I will always take a compliment, particularly when it comes from other women, because it’s such a sign of acceptance as one of the tribe. I was at the chemist one day, picking up my hormone patches, when the lady dealing with my prescription said, ‘You’re looking really nice. I meant to say it the last time you were in.’ Another of the staff smiled at me and nodded encouragingly in agreement.

Half an hour later, Dad’s amazing cleaner Joyce, who is both a licensed pilot and an FA-qualified referee, was similarly sweet. And this has been my overwhelming experience of transition. It has been far easier than I expected, utterly joyous, in fact, largely due to the kindness and acceptance I have experienced.

But if every cloud has a silver lining, it follows that in a life filled with silver linings there has to be the odd dark cloud.

Still basking in those lovely ladies’ compliments, I got involved in a Facebook debate about self-declaration: the idea that a transperson can just say, ‘I am a woman,’ and immediately make it so. As I have said before, I’m not a fan.

I believe that claims should be backed by evidence. So, I posted, ‘I’ll wait until I have completed this process, surgically and legally, before I definitively say, “I am female.”’

Then it will be the truth and, what’s more, the law of the land, founded on court rulings that specifically considered and rejected (on scientific grounds) the idea that the genetic differences between men and women pose an insuperable barrier to transition.

Sadly, however, some people haven’t got the memo. Immediately I got a comment to inform me that I was wrong. I could never be female, that was basic science. ‘You will always be male.’

That is about the nastiest, most hurtful thing you can say to a transwoman. It effectively denies our identity, as if we are simply the creations of our own self-delusions. So it hit me like the proverbial punch to the gut.

But then I thought of all the lovely women who have welcomed and embraced me as one of their own. And I got up, tidied my hair, swiped on some lippy and carried on with the rest of my day.

R0wantrees · 21/03/2020 08:42

I had one of my children without any anaesthetic, or painkillers. I seriously doubt layering any part of the body is even remotely like it.

Im female & havent given birth or had laser hair removal however there will be many women who've done both.
It seems likely that if the pain were comparable we (who listen to women) would all be very aware.
Its reasonable to conclude that it isnt & Thomas does not.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 21/03/2020 07:52

And please allow me to be very sceptic of the claim that the pain is the same.

I had one of my children without any anaesthetic, or painkillers. I seriously doubt layering any part of the body is even remotely like it.

Binterested · 21/03/2020 07:07

You also don’t suffer from incontinence, need restorative surgery, get mastitis or any of the other grim complications of childbirth and after.

Rachel Cusk has a line about childbirth and breastfeeding being labour that is requisitioned from women’s lives. The same does not apply to lasering leg hair. Only a pampered buffoon would make that comparison.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 21/03/2020 06:53

Yes. Also, after you laser off your legs you don’t get to go home with a baby and look after the baby. You get smooth legs, that’s all.

Crackerofdoom · 21/03/2020 06:34

@mychardonnaydragon

What I find most frustrating about constant comparisons to childbirth is that the people making them only seem to think about the pain part and not the extraordinary physical effort and physical and psychological aftermath involved.

I tore the meniscus in my knee last year and whilst I would put the pain on a par with labour, I wasn't then expected to run a marathon on that knee which would be a hard enough feat without the injury.

Their view that childbirth is just a few hours of pain to be endured shows that they are incapable of really understanding the female experience.

I am an immigrant and I appreciate that not only are there cultural differences here I am not part of but that it is not the responsibility of the people here to pretend that I am in order to make me feel more like I am one of them.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 21/03/2020 06:10

Can Billy Bragg self isolate for 5 mins with Gillian? I think a BB conversion would happen very quickly!

Well said that woman.

TinselAngel · 21/03/2020 00:27

Gillian rules.

FannyCann · 21/03/2020 00:14

Gillian. StarStarStarGin

BINtersectionalFeminism · 20/03/2020 23:44

💪🏻 Gillian!!

Binterested · 20/03/2020 23:17

Love Gillian 😍

Winesalot · 20/03/2020 22:45

Well said Gillian.

The immigration analogy for transwomen
StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 18/03/2020 07:41

Havent read the article. But I did use citizenship as an argument when I filled out the self id consultation. I feel Danish, but the danish govt like all other govts decide criteria for who becomes danish. I can call myself danish but I dont get a passport until I have done abcdefg....

MrsCollinssettled · 17/03/2020 18:06

That's such a good article and you can really empathise with her about the impact that the trans community are having on her life as a transsexual.

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Winesalot · 17/03/2020 13:33

Here is an interesting perspective from Sian T. It is a rather straight to the point piece.

uncommongroundmedia.com/as-a-transsexual-i-support-dr-eva-poen/

CranberriesChoccy · 17/03/2020 12:30

@MrsCollinssettled

That's an interesting question. People with enough money sure enough can fasttrack their immigration process. I suppose with the self-id, the hold the TRA's have on a lot of institutions, and being told unequivocally that TWAW, you might say their immigration process has also been fasttracked.

MrsCollinssettled · 17/03/2020 07:23

Scenario: Foreigner rocks up in the US.
"Hi - I'm brash and fat so I'm an American just like you, but I think you'd all be improved by speaking my language"

That would get you immediate citizenship wouldn't it? Hmm

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ISaySteadyOn · 17/03/2020 06:10

Durgas, I am an immigrant from a non ES country (citizen since 2016 ☺) and yes, you need to have all those things and it is a long process. First, you need a visa, then you need to apply for IDLR (that's where you pass a test), then you have to have that for 5 years and then you can apply for citizenship. Each of these applications costs money and takes a long time plus interviews at the Home Office.
I couldn't just say 'Well, I drink tea and am good at queuing so let me in' (if we're going by fulfilling stereotypes meaning you are the thing). So, in short, the immigrant analogy is rubbish.

Also, I don't shave or depilate at all, still an adult human female last time I checked.

Durgasarrow · 17/03/2020 02:27

Don't immigrants have to pass citizenship tests? Don't they have to be screened? Don't they have to be accepted? Don't they have to have papers?

And yet, Don't today's trans advocates want to NOT have papers, but just say "poof, I'm now instantly a "citizen" of the opposite sex? Don't they want to say so on the basis of NOT being screened, or chosen, but just on their own say-so? Don't they insist that they don't have to answer any questions showing they know one fucking thing about what women are actually about, but insist they already know all the answers, and more?

Thinkingabout1t · 17/03/2020 00:55

Thanks, Errol. Someone copied the whole Telegraph article into the earlier thread. Even with all we now know about transgenderism, it was an education. The absolute obliviousness to reality, the total belief in 50s stereotypes. Michele Roberts clearly saw all this in the review of DT’s book in 1993.

TheCuriousMonkey · 16/03/2020 22:20

A friend of mine died in childbirth. In the UK in the 21st century. To compare childbirth to hair removal is obscene. Are we really not allowed to mention AGP on Munsnet? Do we really have to tiptoe around saying what this person is? I'm not going to do that.

This person is a misogynist with a fetish who gets off on minimising childbirth, which killed my friend, in the pages of a national newspaper.

This person is a "coloniser" not an "immigrant". And he is not welcome in my sex class.

Melroses · 16/03/2020 20:36

As my dear GM used to say, pride is painful.

BINtersectionalFeminism · 16/03/2020 20:16

I have heard several TW complain about IPL. FFS you CHOSE to have it done.

Also some women have to do hair removal just to keep their jobs, remember the Dorchester?

ErrolTheDragon · 16/03/2020 19:34

Not sure if anyone has stated this - but if I went into an West Indian / Bangladeshi etc community centre to state that I (white) could bring something and expand their experience, I rightly would be told to fuck off

Especially if what you were bringing was some sort of 1950s stereotype of their community.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 16/03/2020 18:12

He made and decorated my wedding cake grin I'm not aware that he ever became a woman.

I love that story about your grandad StealthPolarBear.