How not to 'fill the gaps' for men

I did it for the first time this morning and it felt great. 👍

A male colleague was whining about a spreadsheet that needs to be updated by everyone in the team; and he told me that he wasn't able to do it, blah, blah, blah.

So could I update it for him?

I pointed out that 2 other people had managed to do it this morning, so he should just try again.

It felt really good. My eyes have truly been opened.

The thing is would people care if the whole card / birthday thing ended? Is it done as a pay in thing because you want your own life events recognised? So if it all stopped so what? Personally found it all quite tedious and was always done by women. But would mr big shot be upset if he retired and no one organised drinks or card etc?

Dido can’t even be arsed to respond just jolly glad I don’t know you in real like you sound a barrel of laughs

@daringdoris. Good thread!

Since it was pointed out to me a year ago I've been acutely aware of 'Office Housework'. Our office is about 60% women, but men definitely dominate the higher-up jobs.
I've noticed on our team (about 50:50) that not a single guy has organized the twice yearly office training/jolly day for several years (we normally have a committee of 5 people doing this). I pointed this out to a team leader and she looked so surprised, as if this wasn't totally apparent. So, they're trying to gender-balance these things more.
But it's definitely still the women who bring in the greetings cards, organize snacks, do the wife-work.
I agree with @Dido that we shouldn't be doormats, but I think the point of the thread is that if you don't even recognize that someone is wiping their shoes all over you then you can't change.
I'd consider myself a fairly strident feminist and it only just occurred to me that blokes were taking the piss at work. Having said that, I'd be very happy for all the cards/treats etc to disappear anyway.

MsTSwift

Am almost certain Dido has not been in the company of your average 13 year old girlthat doesn’t include the violin playing jumper wearing sort I mean the other sort

I'm not entirely clear what this is even supposed to mean beyond some nonsense
that can see through a computer screen into my soul- clever you.

You have an incredibly narrow idea of what being a woman is. It's pretty pathetic trotting out must be an MRA or a man just because a poster doesn't fit into the stereotype.

MsTSwift

Riight. You are very unconvincing. And incredibly rude

Because I don't fit your ridiculous idea of what a woman should be like? Sorry but I am a woman, in business and I simply do not behave like a doormat.

I find it very amusing how so many of the regulars take great pride in boasting, as on the recent thread about David Thomas (?), that they reject anything feminine and are constantly wearing Doc Martens, only practical clothing, buzz cuts , no make up etc etc but on the other hand take an inverse pride about moaning about how put upon they are in the workplace and the home.

It's just bizarre- apparently you (general) you can resist the socialisation of the trivial things but important stuff , you (general you) fold.

If you (general you) are daft enough to voluntarily take on low level admin tasks which aren't part of your job description, hell mend you. If you (general you) aren't capable of speaking up that's your problem not the "patriarchy"

I really want to not only stop doing it, but get them to realise that the gaps are being filled by (almost) the only girl in the venture. Is it possible? Has anybody done it?

I think you just have to stop doing it. I'm afraid they will probably never notice / understand they were leaving it to the only girl, but at least it won't all fall on you. You can still say "Ok, X needs to be done, who is going to pick that up?" Just make sure you don't fill the resounding silence with "ok, I guess I can cover that".

Which means that ultimately, you have to be prepared to let the thing fail rather than continue to cover the gaps.

Ha!

I was gutted that post was lost when the thread got killed so really happy to see it's struck a chord.

It's something I noticed a while ago and now actively point out to my female colleagues and (usually) male mangers.

Basically, because men and (to a lesser extend) women are socialised to expect women to be the support humans (love that phrase!), those expectations bleed over into the professional context.

I've seen many competent and conscientious women in their forties get branded as "a safe pair of hands" or become some male managers "trusted second" and end up doing mostly invisible gap filling. They are respected and trusted, yet at the same time less competent (usually) men are promoted past them because once you are a safe pair of hands, you aren't seen as Leadership potential.

I call it the "housewife trap", from my observation that the people who spend their time actively avoiding problems (for example, watching the stove to make sure the milk doesn't boil over) don't get as much credit as the people who swoop in after a disaster happens to clear it up (snatching the over-boiling pan off the stove). Yet it's the former that you really want on your team.

A woman I mentioned this to at a professional event sent me this link about the same thing: noidea.dog/glue. It's long but worth reading, as is the article it links to about male/female patterns in volunteering at work.

FWIW I still fill the gaps. I'm a project manager/product owner so it is my job :) Difference is (1) I will delegate as much as I can to juniors ("hey Amit, it's development opportunity time!") and (2) When I stop a fuckup I make sure everyone knows I do it rather than assuming they realise. "Whoa! That's a huge gap between man A and Man B! But it's ok, I've caught it and managed the immediate impact on the stakeholders. Here's my recommendation for how we handle it. Everyone happy with that? Great, crack on"

Great thread. I remember going to a local council type multi-agency meeting years ago, mainly men in attendance. One chap (who played in a band) kept piping up that what we really needed was a Youth Festival in the town & looking over at me when he said it. He was very persistent on the matter. Having taken over the market square a couple of years before to do 'an all day event' I knew what a logistical nightmare it was & I wasn't prepared to do it again along with my job at the time.

As it was I had a really sore throat that just meant I croaked noises rather than spoke properly so I just ignored him every time he made a suggestion, let it hang & stayed silent. Reader, he didn't arrange a Youth Festival for many years... And still probably hasn't 😂

On my first day as Finance Manager for a company there was a meeting. The salesman looked at me and said “I’ll have a coffee thanks”. I looked blankly and said “Great, mines a tea”. He actually told me that as a woman, I should be making all the drinks. I went ballstic, told him it’d be a cold day in hell before I was responsible for making their tea, and a few other things too.

Am almost certain Dido has not been in the company of your average 13 year old girl 😁 that doesn’t include the violin playing jumper wearing sort I mean the other sort 😁😁

I am a champ of avoiding tasks I don't want to do. I had to learn this skill as the oldest daughter in a big family. I definitely agree with the vague "not my department" look, with not getting mad but not taking responsibility, either, with just not filling the damned gaps. Life is too short.

Loving this thread! Almost wish I didn't work for an organisation that's 90% female (total 150 staff!) My boss is a woman and so is hers, and so is everyone in my office. So we all muck in to make stuff happen - and of course its a bloody efficient organisation Never run out of stuff, always clean cups and tidy meeting rooms. And no one feels put-upon

But I have been using the methods at home with two older teen boys and a incompetent DH. I can now ignore the dishwasher being badly loaded and the laundry baskets overflowing because they are the kids' chores and it's not good for them to have it done for them. I also don't empty DH's wardrobe of his empty wooden hangers so his shirts get returned to him doubled-up on the cheap plastic hangers he hates. It took about 3 months but I've noticed he occasionally takes the empty ones out now 👍

DONT FILL THOSE GAPS is my new mantra

I never did this, from day one of my working life. I would be the first to volunteer for all the core projects so I’d already have too high a workload for anyone to even think for a moment I could do the admin stuff. Some one else always did it. Yes, it was usually a people pleaser, social butterfly type and usually female.
When I got into management, I ensured these tasks fell to the most junior persons regardless of sex. So everyone paid their dues.

I don't do secretarial type work for any men at work but I definitely notice that I ahve to talk to customers in an exhaustingly polite way all the time. I hear male colleagues saying ''who told you that!'' and ''no you won't be paid on time'' and other frank communications. I have never, ever said anything as blunt without apologising for the inconvenience, apologising for being the bearer of bad news and so on, and yet, I have been complained about twice. I know I am more polite. I KNOW IT. I am constantly listening to male colleagues pushing back and saying you'll get that when I get to it. Or that is legislation, or that's on line, read the circular. I've been complained about because the information I have relayed is not welcome. It is so sexist. I told my (male) boss and he thought I was a joan of arc, martyr getting up on the cross, but I know I'm right...

@MsTSwift

You’re still my parenting guru

I await a shivering Dd...

Riight. You are very unconvincing. And incredibly rude.

MsTSwift

Dido what is your problem? You have been nothing but unpleasantly aggressive on this thread. I am questioning your motives to be honest (Mra)

Oh fgs- any one who expresses a different view point must be a men's rights advocate or a man. I detest the sort of door mat whining in this thread. It's just another inner Beryl isn't it?

Stand up for yourselves. It just reads as if far too many of you are more than happy to take on the doormat role and whinge about it rather than do anything about it.

Sorry to burst your silly little bubble, especially Mrs TSwift's but I am a successful business woman who simply never accepted the sort of crap too many of you seem is your allocated role in life.

Contrabassoon superb office chicken game. Much applause.

The interesting thing that happens is either the stuff is important enough that other people (men) do it. Or it isn’t. So you free more time up to meet your own objectives and spend less time assisting other people (men) hit their objectives.

Project minutes can be useful to dish out accountability, other minutes of more routine meetings are less useful.

Meetings I arrange, I sort out room, guest greeting, catering etc. If I’m invited by someone else in my department I do none of these things.

I also consistently ensure that my team don’t get landed with gap filling that should be done elsewhere. If it is specifically another teams remit - we redirect. Consistently. Eventually it stops happening.

I suggest everyone ignores Dido s/he clearly on a wind up

Dido what is your problem? You have been nothing but unpleasantly aggressive on this thread. I am questioning your motives to be honest (Mra)

@DidoLamenting

Actually - she packs for herself - I was thinking more about when she goes into town without a coat etc... And if the weather is warm enough for a bra top... my totally crap and neglectful parenting won’t even be noticed...

Dido, I get your point but it is hard when you’re new and these support staff who can make life extremely difficult for you if you make enemies of them...

I have found similar with the occasional middle aged veterinary receptionist with a chip on their shoulder who have worked in a practice for 20 years and have the power to make your life hell (and they do this to men too)

Dd1 wore a bra top and combats in freezing temperatures. Not my problem she wore her coat indoors and looked weird so won’t do that again

I laughed out loud... I now know what to do with my Dd1 next time...

I would not be telling anyone that I had a daughter who was old enough to wear bra top and combats but who was incapable of packing appropriate clothes for a trip away. Any child over the age of around 12 should be able to think for themselves on that. Your job as a parent is to encourage them to think for themselves- not to do everything for them.

Tork, you are brilliant!

YY, to the fucking secret Santa and lunches. 'Oh, are we not doing secret Santa this year then?' Shrug, guess not. 'We're not going out to lunch before Xmas?' Shrug, guess not. 'Did you know the printer was out of toner?' Nope.