How not to 'fill the gaps' for men

That was also to @Xiaoxiong!

And to @Overmy

Thanks!
I've been mildly grumbling and putting out feelers about sorting out the home page for months now, so I did a Henny Penny thing and thought "well if no other fucker here is going to do it, I'll do it". I even asked outright if the older workers hated it too, but I think they are now in the monkey cage and don't realize how stinky it is there. Suggesting one of them do it (including a couple of the older women) was a bit like trying to get my mum to change from her brick Nokia.

I'm quite disorganized and chaotic at heart, so I desperately crave organization otherwise I tend to spin off and be random. So doing this does benefit me somewhat as I can organize it the way that will best suit my jumpy brain.

I told the team leader how long it will take and because our work is flat right now (because of CV) then i'll probably be finished very quickly. SO yes, I'm going to keep doing it, but I'm definitely going to squash my inner rusty in future. Thanks for the Footloose reference!

Icouldhavedanced

Has your team leader actually agreed to you doing the work? It would be worth going back to her with an estimate of how much time it’s going to take before getting stuck in.

Absolutely office chicken - but you swerved like Rusty in Footloose. Now you’ve done it you need to recover it as best you can and do not serve next time!

Icouldhavedanced if the older men on the team are more alert to what's relevant, I would just make an announcement via whatever channel you originally used to offer to scrub the team page eg. if you originally said at the monday team meeting that you would scrub the page, at the next team meeting say "ok, I had a look at the team page and as I'm too new to the team I don't actually know what's relevant so it would be a waste of time me doing it. So someone else more senior/who has been here longer will have to do it instead." And then use all your powers to resist being drawn on helping, assisting, etc. Just keep repeating that you can't do it. Full stop.

@OverMy - that's good advice. I think now I've offered I probably can't back out now. And, I was kind of using this to get really familiar with the inner workings of the department - because knowledge is power. But I'm going to be a damn sight more assertive about handing off the maintenance once I've finished. I'm going to suggest to my team leader that this may be a good task to be handed out yearly. Perhaps randomly so it doesn't always fall to a woman.

@TorkTorkBam - I like the phrase of office chicken! The only thing about this website is it's pretty impossible to always store the links you need because of the security settings. And scrolling very slowly through 7 pages is driving me crazy. I think I'll take this one on the chin and have it as a learning curve. Having two different opinions makes me think this one is a bit of a grey area but to beware in future.

Do not touch the website. Do not nag others to do it. Office chicken remember.

If it winds you up enough, keep your own special page with links to the useful places for you that is only for you.

Put your name and last updated by on one all the pages too.

ICouldHaveDancedAllNight

You can spin that to dishing out work once it’s scrubbed. Allocating areas of responsibility and highlighting lack of updates, Pointing out how much more efficient it is and issuing guidelines on maintaining it.

People are socialised to behave like this from birth. Both men and women. That means lots of women don't even notice what they are doing. That's how socialisation works.

Step 1: notice you are filling the gaps.
Step 2: stop filling the gaps.
Step 3: play it forward to other women who are not yet at step 1.

You see... I didn’t see it as excuses, I hear people sharing their experiences and other people giving advice from their experiences in a supportive/constructive way.

We can’t all be Karen Brady and work place culture can vary widely. It’s verging on a bit gaslighty to suggest that all sexism in the workplace is women’s own fault for not being... assertive/bossy/rude(?)/clever enough to sidestep these issues. But definitely if you are in a secure position and it’s worth it in the long run to put your foot down and make a stand for yourself and for women everywhere then good for you. There are very many real-world reasons why it’s often prudent not to, and it doesn’t serve any of us if successful women climb the ladder and pull it up behind them without passing on their wisdom or holding their male employees to account when they come up short and expect colleagues to mother them.

For me, I'm finding this thread very useful (see my post above) as it's making me reconsider the grey zone between being a team player and being a doormat. I wish it were more obvious, but sometimes it isn't.

I find it very valuable to step back and examine why we “naturally” fall into these roles

But this discussion goes nowhere. I've seen this type of thread so many times. It never goes anywhere beyond the "women are socialised to be nice, oh dear what a pity". Lots of hand wringing but little of anything practical.

Interesting that you interpret my rejection of being nice as aggressive. Or that you think being a door matcshould be "natural" The latter is a very odd way of thinking.

I find this sort of navel- gazing very irritating.

By the way, this will take me about a week to do, I'll do it on top of my regular work spread out over a month.

Here we go...is this an example of me 'Filling the Gap' at work?

We have a team page which contains updates of guidelines, protocols, contact details etc. This stupid thing has not been scrubbed of bullshit info since about 2010. There are out-of-date contracts or weird little social things hanging around in there from 2008 mixed in with key information.

Because of how it's formatted, you have to diligently click through up to 8 pages of info before you find the category you might want. It takes about 3-5 seconds delay before the page turns. It's irritating, but not a deal-breaker.

I finally got fed up with seeing a 'World Cup 201* sweepstakes' (can't remember exactly which World Cup) line. So, I offered to scrub the pages of flim-flam so we could get access to information easily.

But, now I'm thinking, why isn't one of the more experienced blokes on the team offering to take the lead on this?

Because of the way our team is structured, there are now women on it, but we're all relatively new to this job. The older men would be way more alert of what is relevant and what isn't.

I thought that organizing this team page would be a good bit of teamwork and show willing, but perhaps I'm kidding myself and I've only gone and offered to do the electronic equivalent of scrubbing out the office fridge?

And you are very aggressive. What is it about this discussion that riles you up so much?

That’s not how I’m seeing the thread at all Dido. It’s not “bad men weedy women” you seem to be a very black and white thinker.

It’s the unconscious stuff I find interesting. I find it very valuable to step back and examine why we “naturally” fall into these roles.

This thread is just one of many making excuses that it's "the patriarchy" or "men not pulling their weight". Any excuse other than requiting women to take a long hard look at themselves and deal with the issue of why so many women are happy to behave like doormat. But no it's far easier to whinge about how hard life is. This thread has little to do with feminism being of any use to women beyond being an exercise in self-pity.

It’s the exact opposite. It’s saying this happens, it’s not fair, but if you want to stop it happening you will need to take responsibility for saying no, and for not helping in situations where you could.

The study in my link into the male/female patterns of work volunteering shows this is not down to women behaving like doormats, it’s because empirically different expectations are placed on women than on men.

And while I agree it’s still going to be down to individual women to resist those expectations, that’s additional effort and risk for women vs men in the same position and cumulatively this stuff matters.

I don’t think it is of little use.

Recognising that you have been socialised into behaviours that are not ideal is useful. Sharing experiences and strategies with other women is practical feminism.

What’s not useful is saying don’t know why you would do that I don’t. It’s never useful to people who do have the experience whatever it is.

We need a name for it, could name it Antoinetting?

Dido can’t even be arsed to respond just jolly glad I don’t know you in real like you sound a barrel of laughs

You really have a problem with a woman expressing a difference opinion don't you? Your ridiculous comment about he/she merely shows you have a very narrow minded and stereotyped vision of what a woman should be like so I am equally glad not to have to deal with someone like you in real life.

This thread is just one of many making excuses that it's "the patriarchy" or "men not pulling their weight". Any excuse other than requiting women to take a long hard look at themselves and deal with the issue of why so many women are happy to behave like doormat. But no it's far easier to whinge about how hard life is. This thread has little to do with feminism being of any use to women beyond being an exercise in self-pity.

But with regards to the falling through the gaps thing, I wish he’d just learn the womanly art of making a good list!!

Thinking about this more, I think there are two issues....

Institutionalised/subconscious sexism... as highlighted by the author of the invisible woman... there are certain inherent bias to what is expected of women/considered women’s work (eg organising catering, showing some children round etc.) which is hard to break out of without seeming like a difficult character, not a team player etc.

Also there is a personality type thing at play too I think. My husband for example is a manly man in a macho job, he’s good at making decisions as a manager, but is too ‘nice’/too much of a people pleaser to put his foot down about things which affect his own working life (particularly with awkward/bolshy clients) so ends up being messed around or compromising his own health and safely (eg moving large animals, using farm equipment on his own). It’s assumed he won’t mind them turning up late, without clean equipment or enough staff etc and just get on with it, because he never blooming puts his foot down, it does my head in.

There are some amazing kick-ass women that he manages on his team however, that don’t take any nonsense and aren’t treated like that, farmers turn up on time with adequate staff/equipment and sometimes even a cup of tea. They have them well trained!

So maybe not always directly about being a woman, although women walk a finer line between being judged “assertive” or “b**ch” which is difficult if you care about what people think.

For what it’s worth, when I made the original comment I wasn’t thinking about stuff like social events (though I agree that stuff is done disproportionately by women) but being the person who notices stuff falling between cracks and catches it, whether that’s the logistics for a critical workshop, or realising two key people are making incompatible statements and getting them together to agree a single solution, or sometimes sending cupcakes to a team on the other side of the world to show appreciation for their having to deal with a problem your team created.

I find the men I work with (not all men but typically) are focussed on their own tasks and deliveries more than the big picture and tend not to see these gaps opening up.

(The cupcake gap is the relationship friction that would have opened up between the teams if I hadn’t done something human and public to show them we knew they’d been impacted and appreciated them)

And anything spreadsheet related I direct them to YouTube.

I’m lucky that this doesn’t happen in my workplace, apart from organising birthday /maternity/leaving cards, which I try to avoid having anything to do with anyway as I think they’re unnecessary. With regards to making tea/coffee and washing up, if anything the men are better organised and do a better job - but they are mostly ex-trades and used to doing a tidy job and clearing up after themselves.
They might not be like this at home, but I suspect they are.