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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Piers Morgan with Lisa Nandy on Good Morning Britain

393 replies

musicposy · 10/03/2020 07:46

He’s trying to push Lisa Nandy as to whether any man can self identify and compete in woman’s sports. He’s actually trying to talk some sense and saying it’s unfair to woman’s rights. Making really good points about trans rights overriding woman’s rights.
She will not give a straight answer to anything.

OP posts:
Datun · 13/03/2020 11:09

Rather, it makes more sense for us to debunk it.

Indeed. It's not women's job to make men feel better about the reasons they have transitioned. Whether it's to validate a fetish, or a delusion, or a mental condition, which is apparently what they are calling gender dysphoria these days.

Especially if it compromises them in any way, or any other woman.

A woman asking for a female to do her smear test wants exactly that. She doesn't give a toss if the male showing up is showing up because it turns him on, he has a mental condition, is requiring her to validate him, or thinks she should be ok because he has been 'vetted through significant psychoanalysis'.

In this equation, what the man wants is irrelevant.

Yet we are often subjected to the concept that what a man wants should, automatically, inform the women he wants it from.

R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 11:02

It was exactly the same on I'm a celebrity, they didnt interact with caitlin in the same way they did with women, no matter how hard they pretended to.

Presumably Jenner also interacted differently to women?

Langsdestiny · 13/03/2020 10:54

It was exactly the same on I'm a celebrity, they didnt interact with caitlin in the same way they did with women, no matter how hard they pretended to.

DonkeySkin · 13/03/2020 10:48

People here sometimes talk as if the most hard line GC position is the one that the vast majority of women would want to see instantiated, in terms of political solutions, and my point was I am not convinced that is true.

I can see what you are saying Goose, and I think you're right about most women's views on this, but it doesn't necessarily follow that that should be the stance that feminists take.

There was a survey a while back that showed something like 60-70 per cent of women felt comfortable with a 'transgender woman' using women's facilities. This survey is sometimes used by trans activists to show that most women support 'trans rights'. However, it's very likely that when the women polled read 'transgender woman' they assumed that meant 'transsexual' - they were not picturing a person with an unambiguously male body and almost certainly didn't realise that 'transgender woman' meant literally any man.

So while the trans activists are misrepresenting the survey, it is likely that most women do indeed feel inclined to accept men who have 'gone through all that' ('that' being assumed to be genital surgery and extensive counselling) in women's spaces. Most women feel compassion towards them and see them as fundamentally unthreatening.

That's probably where most 'GC' feminists were at at one stage too. It's the default position on trans for almost all women, I think: 'You have a psychological condition that causes you great distress, you've tried as hard as you can to make yourself look 'female', there are very few of you, who am I to stand in the way of making your life easier'?

The problem is that a lot of these assumptions are based on false, or at least incomplete, premises. You could see this with India Willoughby on CBB - how the female housemates wanted to welcome India as a 'sister', but how almost immediately their words and body language - and India's - revealed the same old male domination-female submission dynamic. Many 'true transsexuals' have the same attitude of entitlement towards women as any sexist man, so the premise that they have become 'like women' is false, and worse, women are forbidden from acknowledging these sexist dynamics, because to do so is framed as a (quite literally) mortal insult to the transsexual male. This kind of bullying framework, in which women are forced to subordinate our instincts and sense to men's desires, is unacceptable and feminists are duty bound to expose this, not collude in it, by pretending there is a fundamental difference between those who've had surgery and those who haven't.

Further, the rhetoric and political activism by transsexuals is what has laid the foundation for everything we are seeing today: 'sex change' (and the extension of this idea to children), mind over body, trans feelings over everyone else's reality, the elimination of female as a legal and social category. As this blog notes:

Transexual activists lobbied for the legal fiction of sex change, and Parliament delivered, despite knowing what re-defining ‘woman’ and ‘female’ to include males would do to women’s rights.

So just because most women currently see transsexualism as harmless, or as a distinct phenomenon to transgenderism, doesn't mean that this view is correct, much less that feminists should reinforce it. Rather, it makes more sense for us to debunk it.

FloralBunting · 13/03/2020 10:17

Witness how often robust and forthright here gets painted as something else.

Now, to be fair, I can certainly be very rude and it's sometimes uncalled for, but even the most measured but blunt statement gets the sucky lemon face treatment so often if a woman makes it.

R0wantrees · 13/03/2020 10:05

from the de-programming /Beryl thread:

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'.

Not just 'unkind' but also "agressive".
The expectations affect how others treat women who are centring their sex-based rights & Safeguarding.

WhatKatyDidNot · 13/03/2020 09:46

I am loving this Beryl trope! Thanks DuLANG!

I think I am not prepared to make compromises on behalf of other women just because they have a nasty Beryl whispering in her ear.

DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 13/03/2020 09:18

Voila! The ‘Beryl’ thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412053-Mumsnet-FWR-Guide-to-De-Programming-Yourself-From-Self-Harming-Kindness

‘Pathological Altruism’ is a great phrase. The left is absolutely infested with it at the moment. Nandy, Long Bailey, Rayner, all textbook examples.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_Altruism

I wonder if my Beryl came home in the maternity hospital Bounty pack as I don’t think I had one until then?

ScapaFlo · 13/03/2020 09:10

I have an inner bitch troll from hell. Who is becoming more of an outer bitch troll from hell the older I get and the more nonsense about 'gender' is spouted Grin

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 09:09

I don't think "vetted through significant psychoanalysis" represents the norm for trans people in any country. It may be easier to access in North American, particularly if you have lots of money, but I'm not convinced that even back in the 70s or 80s this wasn't more propaganda than reality.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 09:06

(Can you tell that Nandy is frustrating me?)

SisterWendyBuckett · 13/03/2020 09:06

I have said I think that quite a few women, who have no sympathy with the idea of self-id or "trans" people who have made no significant medical changes, think differently about people who have been vetted through significant psychoanalysis, and who have had sex reassignment surgery.

Just picking up on the vetted through significant psychoanalysis point.

I have a close family member who is a hugely experienced, practising doctor of psychoanalysis. The NHS services in the UK that enable people to receive actual psychoanalysis are next to nil.

What services there were have been mostly pulled.

Yes, you can pay to have it privately. Not quite so difficult if you live in or near London and have a lot of money. You'll need several sessions a week if you want to undertake this properly.

There are analysts in the rest of the country, but they are few and far between.

All that aside, the fact of the matter is that those wishing to transition do not receive adequate and neutral counselling, let alone psychoanalysis.

When someone is desperate to receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and start the pathway of medical transitioning, they don't go for psychoanalysis or any deep thinking talking therapy.

And actually, I believe that thinking deeply is the last thing they would want to do.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 09:05

I think I have an inner Andrea, or possibly an inner Julie (Bindel or Burchill, take your pick really). It took me a very long time to understand that for those who do have a Beryl shaking her off isn't necessarily as easy as realizing that she's not helping much. Socialization runs deep.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 09:00

Yeah I don’t have a beryl if thats what it means

I have an enid who wants to be nice but over coffee is beginning to think beryle is a twat and beryl maybe very...very...very wrong

WhatKatyDidNot · 13/03/2020 08:57

To my understanding Beryl isn't just the internalized socialization that hurts a woman herself, she's a representation of the tendency to try to force other women to abide by that socialization too. She's what Nandy is deploying every time she bangs on about the child in her constituency as a means to shut other women up.

Thank you! That makes perfect sense. Ya boo sucks to Beryl.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 08:53

prodigal

I don’t think anyone is too harsh on this issue, people are very passionate and protective on this board

It was self id that did it for me...and when you get rid of the concept of self id as something which huge changes in society and womens rights HAVE to be made to be nice, then its not a leap to believe that even ‘true’ trans have self IDed to a point

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 08:52

Amanda Barrie just talked to India like she was petulant child "of course you are, dear" but intereracted in a completely different way than with the women in the group.

IME women very rarely use that tone towards adult females, but do use that tone towards adult males with a fair amount of regularity.

(As a result of adult males being more prone to acting like petulant children than adult females.)

zanahoria · 13/03/2020 08:50

" India can shout that from the highest tower, but it still is not true, and 99.9999% of blokes would not consider India to be a woman - just saying"

I noticed that on Celebrity Big Brother that even after she had browbeaten the women into agreeing, none of them actually gave the impression they believed it. Amanda Barrie just talked to India like she was petulant child "of course you are, dear" but intereracted in a completely different way than with the women in the group.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 13/03/2020 08:48

while Rufus does even if she can't spell it

Auto correct...thats my excuse and I’m sticking with it

(Thanks scapa Grin)

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 08:47

We love our local reindeer even when we disagree with her! I'm sure I'm on the "too harsh sometimes" list and yet somehow she and I have been able to navigate that without escalating to bun throwing and/or fisticuffs.

To my understanding Beryl isn't just the internalized socialization that hurts a woman herself, she's a representation of the tendency to try to force other women to abide by that socialization too. She's what Nandy is deploying every time she bangs on about the child in her constituency as a means to shut other women up.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 13/03/2020 08:43

I've got no Beryl at all, which has been very helpful on this issue. Fundamentally it's just not women's job to yield ground/give up rights/provide emotional support to anyone who's upset on demand, and those expecting us to do so are not asking us to be nice, they're asking us to be subservient. They are trying to force us into the support human class, which is not "kind" in any way.

In terms of women's spaces, women who are fine sharing them with some males do not have the right to give the sex segregated aspect of those spaces away on other women's behalf. If the answer is not a universal "yes" then it is a "no".

zanahoria · 13/03/2020 08:42

The look on Lisa Nandy's face in that interview said it all

static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2020/03/10/15/istock-476756323.v1.jpg

WhatKatyDidNot · 13/03/2020 08:40

What's an inner Beryl?!

If it's what I think it is - an anthropomorphic visualisation of female socialisation? - I don't have one of those. Thank god. All inner Beryls should be locked in a mind palace dungeon.

Goose does not seem to understand what woman-centred means while Rufus does even if she can't spell it! Woman-centred isn't the result of a theoretical poll of the most popular compromise women (and their inner Beryls!) are prepared to make. Woman-centred is considering only the needs and benefits to women as a class.

You took some perfectly clear posts very personally there, Goose. Hmm.

DuLANGDuLANGDuLANG · 13/03/2020 08:32

I’d probably say yes to ‘trutrans’ too, because my inner Beryl is very powerful.

My Nana didn’t have a Beryl (she probably stamped it out whilst in the WAAF during WW2), which is why I try and channel her when posting on FWR, ‘Be More Nana’.

FWR made me realise that consent is not a majority-wins-democracy. One solitary ‘no’ is a total veto.

‘Blackballs to people with balls’ as Nan might’ve said.

Now that DsD wants to be a boy and I’m reading all sorts of stuff on the history and politics of transsexualism, along with various psychological texts, I’m less and less convinced that trans is actually EVER a specific thing, it seems more like a maladaptive coping strategy for various other issues. I don’t doubt that some people are genuinely more content post transition, but I am starting to believe they are responding to symptoms, rather than an actual condition.

Anyway, there are no ways to write laws that keep the nice trans in and the bad trans out, the only place a line can be drawn is with sex, not gender.

No males in spaces, services or positions reserved for females. Ever.

(And viceversa because chaps deserve privacy and dignity too).

ScapaFlo · 13/03/2020 08:15

But worth reading Rufus