Is it ever acceptable to hire a cleaner?

However my personal struggles with the patriarchy don’t make it ok for me to exploit another woman in perhaps an even more precarious position than me. Let’s face these jobs are looked down on in the U.K, the doctor who pays a cleaner to scrub her toilet bowl probably doesn’t see the cleaner as in the same level value wise as herself

Yes like this post for example. We can't all be doctors and it seems to me that it would be much better for people to just treat others with respect and to pay fairly, instead of seeing it as a choice between exploiting or not using... Use the service but don't exploit.

You know until I first read on FWR this often repeated nonsense about "oh, it's so un-feminist to employ a cleaner" no one ever tried to make me feel guilty or suggest that I should feel guilty.

Frankly I've seen more posts on here disagree with that perspective than advocate it.

Are they looked down on? I've employed domestic help for over 30 years. I don't look down on them. I'm suspicious of this claim. I think it's put forward by those who either (a) resent that some people can afford cleaners or (b) want to put women down for employing cleaners.

Sorry I asked if it's because they're looked down because I was finding it hard to understand what some on this thread mean is bad about hiring cleaners.

As to whether it's true, it definitely can be true that some people do look down on others because of their job. Not just cleaners, but as I mentioned before retail, also hospitality. You only have to spend some time working in one of those jobs to discover that. I don't think that it's down to indvidual feminist women to stop employing or using the services of people in those jobs though. That sounds more like removing yourself from the problem, rather than doing anything to fix it. (I'm still worried I've completely missed the point).

I'm thinking of employing s cleaner, I have health problems that make cleaning extremely hard work since I have a lack of physical coordination and bending is painful. The thing that has stopped me is that it seems lazy and unacceptable since I am not a middle class high earner.

I hired a gardener last year for the first time, no shame in that at all.

A friend set up an ironing business working from home, is that acceptable? She worked round her young kids and earned a surprisingly high amount. Is that ok?

BeetrootRocks
Because the topics of why 'women's work' is low valued and low paid, why women in particular should feel guilty about outsourcing cleaning but not anyone else, etc etc, are all good topics for fwr

You know until I first read on FWR this often repeated nonsense about "oh, it's so un-feminist to employ a cleaner" no one ever tried to make me feel guilty or suggest that I should feel guilty.

However my personal struggles with the patriarchy don’t make it ok for me to exploit another woman in perhaps an even more precarious position than me. Let’s face these jobs are looked down on in the U.K, the doctor who pays a cleaner to scrub her toilet bowl probably doesn’t see the cleaner as in the same level value wise as herself

I asked whoever posted this virtue signalling post?

Does this poster grow all her own food? Make all her own clothes? Never use restaurants or supermarkets or the NHS for that matter.

Given her high standards I assume she would not want to benefit from the exploited labour of any person.

The utter nonsense of this virtue signalling is that if she directly employs a cleaner she can ensure fair conditions in a way she cannot in other situations.

I was just thinking that! Cat among pigeons...

It’s on here that I have learnt about Menstruation Fetish, though ... and my right to have my own boundaries....

Someone will be along to tell you off for that in a second, let's count

One issue that does touch on sex roles though is privacy. I would be a lot less comfortable with a male cleaner....

'How is it ok for me to clean FOR FREE after my husband but not ok to employ someone to do same work? That would also mean to do same work for someone who pays you for it is wrong, but for free ok?'

Comes back to sex roles and who is supposed to do what for who. Is the bottom line.

Also interesting indoors is more women and outdoors is more men, echoing Victorian 'separate spheres' stuff.

Those ideas got very entranced in national subconscious I think. Their ideas around lots of things did tbh

All very interesting

Window cleaners get paid more than cleaners round here.

Interesting to think why that might be.

'I asked it before of one virtue- signaller- those of you wringing your hands over this-'

Who did you ask?

There has been 1 person on the thread I think who said it was not right to hire a cleaner, out of all the posters on the thread. Maybe two, not going to read it all again!

'Why is a woman employing a cleaner morally repugnant?'

Who said this?

Are you reading a different thread.

General temperature from what I've read is it's silly and quite frankly sexist to lambast women for hiring other women to do cleaning.

In imaginary world:
How is it ok for me to clean FOR FREE after my husband but not ok to employ someone to do same work? That would also mean to do same work for someone who pays you for it is wrong, but for free ok?
Where are you if you are momentarily stuck with little kids, entitled husband who is not moving out and on purpose pissing around toilet, and seemingly endless months until you are divorced and free? You work for free. From your work benefits someone who is abusing you. It's not like you can not clean if your kids are there.

Only just noticed this now, so replying:

I don't understand your point. I've employed cleaners, window cleaners and gardeners. I didn't treat any of them differently. I was very grateful they were doing a job I don't have time to do.

That I don't see any logical reason why we should think of them differently. And that since we evidently do and this is clearly not limited to me, given that there isn't a parallel genre of guiltily writing about employing people, probably disproportionately male to do more traditionally male jobs, it would be worth thinking critically about why this is.

If you don't think of a house cleaner in the same way as a window cleaner that says a lot about you.

Perhaps if I'd come up with that idea in a vacuum it might.

With that topic you have two approaches

1. Women's issue for women to sort

When women say hold on a minute, this is a society issue and we can't sort it by ourselves

Next step is 2. It's a people issue no point identifying sex, all violence is wrong etc

It's the same old thing about different expectations around responsibility, guilt, caring, and restrictions on behaviour around the sexes.

Anyway, that's going off topic sorry!

I think there is a huge level of hypocrisy being displayed in this thread.

Why is a woman employing a cleaner morally repugnant?

I asked it before of one virtue- signaller- those of you wringing your hands over this-

Do you grow all your own food?
Make all your own clothes out of recycled materials?
Never buy any food in a restaurant or supermarket?
Never stay in a hotel?

They're always framed as society issues though

Even in the case of sexual violence exploitation, people try to frame it as a people thing, that's the one that gets most pushback though as it's so obviously wonky.

The things that are mainly driven by men are way way worse than hiring cleaners though.

Conversation about state of planet, war, sexual violence exploitation etc are probably not for this thread though.

Yes, mine too beetroot. This is why there aren't any directly analogous male articles. There can't be, because the socialisation and the societal expectations don't exist in the same way.

Buster the woman who wrote the article says yes that makes it fine...?!

Themselves and everybody else tbh

While all of this is still 'women's issues' we won't get anywhere. Same as with other issues that are actually for society but get framed as 'women's issues' subtext it's up to women to sort them out. Men carry on as usual without a second thought.

My cleaner is a bloke, does this change anything?

Harriet I think possibly it's where the authors politics (thinking about class inequality especially of women, our position in society, etc etc) meets her personal (hiring a woman who is less well paid than her) meets her socialisation (women should do this stuff for themselves and smile while they do it) = conflicted feelings and guilt.

That would be my guess.