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Original poster

Girlguiding UK's cognitive dissonance on IWD

31 replies

JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 18:23

GGUK's theme for IWD2020 is "Help Girls Bust Gender Stereotypes". Blog attached below.

Extract:

The idea that girls should be emotional and caring, with a love of all things sparkly, while boys are more active and practical, creates cartoon-like versions of what it means to be a girl or a boy.

This sounds pretty harmless, but for a girl who wants to play football, or a boy who hates team sports, it makes them feel they can’t express who they really are. Gender stereotypes try to put limits on what you can do and who you can be.

Are they fucking kidding? They have told us that girls who display "masculine" interests need to be managed out of Guiding. They have told us that we have to accept boys who think they are girls (presumably because they like pink and sparkly things), let these boys share tents, showers and toilets with girls and not tell parents that this is happening. They have told us to accept these "cartoon girls" or be thrown out of Guiding.

The cognitive dissonance blows my mind.

GGUK IWD2020

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Original poster
JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 21:58

I should clarify that most guide leaders have far more common sense than GGUK management seem to have so not actually that worried in reality.

Scouts were sued 2 or 3 years ago for allegedly excluding an autistic child. I have no doubt whatsoever that Mermaids and their acolytes would be all over any incident where a trans girl was seen to be excluded. They would have no scruples about putting unpaid volunteers through the mill via the courts. The Scouts completely shafted the Scout leaders in the above mentioned case. The Guides have completely shafted Katie Alcock and Helen Watts and shown their attitude to anyone showing "far more common sense than GGUK management".

Whilst Guide leaders might try to exercise their common sense in the event of an overnight trip, just how would they do this without excluding or marginalising the trans girl, or breaching the privacy rules to give the parents of anyone sharing a tent/dorm with the trans girl informed consent?

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veryboredtoday · 06/03/2020 21:52

Ah, I misinterpreted your post.
Lots of gender diverse girls who don't fit into the stereotype obviously as there always has been. I was one myself back as a brownie back in the 70's.

Beamur · 06/03/2020 21:45

I said I didn't think that there were any in the units represented at that training event. I'm not sure sure how many trans kids there are in GG overall, but actually I would be surprised if it were very many. If you asked me how many gender diverse girls are in GG then I'd say quite a few.

veryboredtoday · 06/03/2020 21:39

Beamer - I would be surprised if there are no transgirls or transboys in any units.
I don't know if any in the groups around here but I'm only a lowly leader so wouldn't be aware. However a local scout group has a transgirl and I know they went on the residential. The scouts are mixed sex so that's same issues do not apply plus I know the sleeping arrangements was dealt with sensibly and sensitively to all the group. The girl guides basically states that they wouldn't inform the other parents at all so they could theoretically be sending off their daughters to camp thinking only girls would be present when that isn't true.
I should clarify that most guide leaders have far more common sense than GGUK management seem to have so not actually that worried in reality.

Beamur · 06/03/2020 21:07

Jessica
I totally get what you are saying.
But, I think the principle of accepting there are conflicts is a really important start point and one which has been denied so far.
There were no actual issues re trans to discuss as presumably there were no trans children in any of the units present. I think it's a totally translatable principle though.

FrogsFrogs · 06/03/2020 20:50

Ah I remember the gobsmacking response from GG at the time.
The question was, what about girls whose family beliefs means they can't be in a mixed sex org, and so admitting males is a prob. GG response, and I was really surprised, as it was so straightforward, was the girls should look elsewhere.

There were threads on it at the time if anyone wants to search.

The other thing that is a problem is that GG are allowed to be a single sex org, as a charity, and exclude males, due to their aims etc. It is a specific exemption. They have no grounds to admit some male children but not others, and some female children but not others. And yet, they are doing this.

The problem with all these rules and laws is that if no one is able to/ willing to/ can afford to challenge them then they are meaningless. Like how the employment equality laws don't magically stop pregnant women being discriminated against etc

Original poster
JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 20:29

Also, Beamur , girls from some faith groups cannot be in the presence of men. Male bodied trans women will not be accepted as women or girls by the parents of these girls. Therefore, their girls will be excluded from Guiding. The consequences of GGUK's brainwashing by Mermaids to include a tiny number of male bodied people is to exclude a much larger number of natal females. And whilst we should not conflate religion with nationality or skin colour, the exclusion of girls from ethnic minority groups is inevitable. How is that following a policy of inclusion?

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Original poster
JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 20:22

Baemur I am sorry, but I wish I had your confidence. Did any of those leaders at your training raise safeguarding issues regarding a trans girl? In the current climate, where any question about anyone trans results in pitchforks and accusations of transphobia, will the average volunteer want to place her head on the block? Look what is happening to Katie Alcock. GGUK have done nothing to address her concerns, just gone on a witch hunt against her.

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veryboredtoday · 06/03/2020 20:20

Like Jessica, I love being a leader but I'm incredibly dismayed at GGUK and I'm really resentful at paying the subs for them to use them to fight battles in the court for something I totally diagree with. I feel GGUK are out of touch with what happens on the ground. Thankfully my girls, the other leaders and the parents are fabulous making the actual sessions a pleasure.

Original poster
JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 20:18

Also, GGUK sees it as a gender stereotype that girls should have to be "emotional and caring" . And yet, what is the trans lobby and its supporters constantly telling us? To put aside all our logic, reasoning, science based knowledge of sexual dimorphism and experience based reservations about allowing the male sex into women only spaces....and to be kind .

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Original poster
JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 20:01

Thank you, Daria . I do enjoy it, even though it is a huge amount of work on top of my day job. However, I will not accept any male bodied person into my unit.

Katie's case is ongoing, she was posting on this board a couple of weeks ago. I will see if I can find the link.

Just an additional remark to "Avocadohips" about the "managing out". It is not my view that anyone can change sex, let alone a girl who is possibly going through puberty and having to cope with potentially distressing changes to her body, leading her to hate it (I deal with 10-14 year olds). However the policy of Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence, with whom GGUK are in partnership, is to validate and accept anyone who asserts that they are the opposite sex, no matter what their age. Therefore, under their policies and guidance, I have to accept that this girl is now a boy because "he" now says he is so. So I must expel "him" from my unit, which, like all of Girlguiding, is single sex.

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Beamur · 06/03/2020 19:58

I think GG actually does mean the above but have been led into developing into trans friendly policies on the basis of inclusion. Which is another thing that the organisation really values.
Interestingly, they are doing a huge push on safeguarding training for all Leaders. I was at one of these recently. Several Leaders discussed (confidentially) examples dealt with in their unit. A recurring theme was where a vulnerable child poses a risk to the other girls in her unit. I got the impression that they are becoming more aware (in my area, not sure if that translates nationally) that there are sometimes conflicts between Inclusion and safeguarding which current policies are not fully addressing.
I would watch this space.

DariaWalker · 06/03/2020 19:50

This information may be relevant here:

uncommongroundmedia.com/the-2010-equality-act-is-being-undermined-by-official-guidance/

Noooblerooble · 06/03/2020 19:25

They're not very bright are they? How sad that they can't see what they're saying contradicts what they said before

DariaWalker · 06/03/2020 19:23

Thanks Jessica. I now remember donating to that campaign to raise funds for that legal action. It seems a long time ago but I think it was only last year. What GG has done horrifies me. And thank you for being a Guide Leader.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 06/03/2020 19:15

And apparently, yes.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 06/03/2020 19:14
  • I got this email earlier, and was pretty furious about the hypocrisy. IWD has brought on a lot of desperate gesturing from organisations who've been busily telling everyone female to shut up and be nice for the past five years or so. Or firing them, suing them, no-platforming them, refusing to allow them to meet, signing petitions to get them to shut up, etc.
Original poster
JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 19:12

Daria yes, Katie Alcock is the Brownie leader in question; Man Friday's Helen is the other.

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Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 19:11

Can ferrets actually reverse?

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 06/03/2020 19:11

I think I can see a ferret trying to run backwards.

Original poster
JessicaLangoustine · 06/03/2020 19:09

Thank you Regina perhaps I'll take my "bile" and stop breaking my back running a Guide unit.

None of my girls - in fact no girl I know - even thinks twice about playing football, climbing a tree, doing the hardest maths challenge, writing a programme or any other pursuit that has been the preserve of the male sex by tradition. That's come from 100+ years of women busting these stereotypes. GGUK have jumped into bed with Mermaids and Gendered Intelligence whose sole purpose is to reinforce every gender stereotype there is. That's the cognitive dissonance between the IWD campaign and GGUK's own policies.

And by the way, this "wonderful organisation" is using my subs to pay expensive lawyers to pursue one of their dedicated leaders through the court for caring about safeguarding. If that's not "bile", I don't know what is.

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veryboredtoday · 06/03/2020 19:08

I had this email earlier and thought exactly the same.
Perhaps they would like to start by defining what is a girl.

Melroses · 06/03/2020 19:07

It is hard to avoid stereotypes when you have converted a single sex organisation to a "single gender organisiation", since stereotypes is all that is left once you remove biological sex from the definition.

Lordfrontpaw · 06/03/2020 19:05

Are they tweeting this?

Do they still think that tomboys should be kicked out and boys who self ID as girls be welcomed and parents not told (including on residential trips)?

FrogsFrogs · 06/03/2020 19:03

Girls who are non binary are also supposed to be advised to join a more fitting org, I remember from s thread ages ago.

GG is for self identifying girls only.

Agree with OP the cognitive dissonance is amazing.