'Mother is a social construct'

My (adoptive) mother was legally my mother. Ditto my (adoptive) father. I don't have a birth certificate that names them as such though.

I have an original long-form BC that has bio parents and all other factual details as recorded at time of birth. I then have a short-form BC that has my adoptive name, (actual) place of birth and my date of birth.

I don't know if this is still how they are issued though.

Surrogacy is the removal of a child from it’s mother at birth. It’s not in the interest of the child.

@Nameofchanges and that wouldn’t be changed by recording the other mother as other mother rather than other parent, the birth mother would still be recorded and registered.

but to be the legal mother of the child I have with my wife rather than “other parent” is important to me, just like men can be legal father of a child they have with their wives conceived using a donor rather than “other parent

The birth certificate isn’t about you it’s for the child.

I speak as someone who’s birth certificate doesn’t have my father named. I feel angry about that to be quite honest with you because my mother made a spiteful choice to exclude him.

The birth certificate is ultimately for the child.

‘Other mother’ is a nightmarish character from Coraline!

You get to be named as mother on the birth certificate of the child you birth, Elsie same as all women who birth children.

"Playing devils advocate does it not just reduce “mothers” to incubators"
You know, it is kind of cute when you see such sexist nonsense, and can trace it back to (at least), the ancient greeks............

To be specific, the trial of Orestes, who 'executed' his mother Clytemnestra for killing his father Agamemnon (who had buggered off to the Trojan wars with his mate Odysseus and a load of geezers in ships, claiming they were rescuing Helen, but actually just roister-doistering and enjoying themselves drinking, fighting and wenching for far too many years!). Where, I believe, Apollo claims that the father is the one true parent (mother just incubator and/or provides base matter with the far more important sperm providing the magic spark that makes a proper human (read male)), and Athena then votes for not guilty. But then she was born from the head of Zeus, so has a screwed-up view of parenthood herself.

But over and over again, it's the same inability of the male to cope with the fact that he can't do it all alone, that even the sacred male comes from the messy, bloody, birth-canal of a female. So, he either tries to deny her significance, or become her by his own actions and force of will. It really is the same ancient theme repeated again and again. The rib of Adam, the head of Zeus, the desperate wish that males could remove the female................

Surrogacy does not always involve poor women coerced by rich women, I have endometriosis and my fiancée (soon to be wife) has offered to be surrogate for my biological child should I need her to be. There have been plenty of cases of relatives or friends being surrogates for infertile women. There is more to being a mother than giving birth.

If you didn’t give birth, nobody needs to check on your maternal health care, or check whether or not you were a child at the time that you gave birth, two of the other stated purposes of a birth certificate.

Adoption certificates record adoptive parents.

No. Absolutely not.

Birth giver = mother.
We’ve had some long and detailed threads about surrogacy and the utter awfulness about the proposed changes to the law.

23 million children a year go uneregistered - one of the main reasons because of discrimination against birth mothers who were raped, or unmarried, or children at the time of the birth, and the insistence that a man must claim the baby and register the birth.

I’m not arguing for the woman who gave birth not to be recorded, or to be recorded as something different, I’m arguing for women to be able to registered mothers regardless of whether they’re the ones giving birth in cases such as surrogacy or same sex couples. I would prefer birth mother and “other mother” as an example. I understand you may not see this as an issue to you as it doesn’t affect you, but to be the legal mother of the child I have with my wife rather than “other parent” is important to me, just like men can be legal father of a child they have with their wives conceived using a donor rather than “other parent”.

There could be an appendix where a child is adopted to include the adoptee details.

An adoption certificate sits on top of a birth certificate.
The birth certificate is not changed.

This is extremely important for people who have been adopted.

No, because it is arguing for the rights of some of the most privileged women in the world at the expense of the ordinary women and children that the registration of births is designed by the UN to protect.

To untether the registration of the mother puts children at risk.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Yes, but I see being able to record a birth without a father as a positive thing (due to men being responsible for 98% of violent crime and 2 women being beaten to death by their male partners every week)

Why don’t you, Elsie?

Feminism isn’t about equality, we don’t want to be the same as men.
it’s about liberation from men.

I’m using this situation to argue for greater women’s rights. This is a situation close to my heart as it personally affects me.

Its not about you.
Its about the rights of children to have their birth recorded.

To untether the registration of the mother puts children at risk.

Arguing for women to be called mothers on birth certificates of their own biological children is not arguing for women’s rights? Or children they will parent with their partner conceived through a donor?

@Elsiebear90
Whilst I can see the reasoning behind your POV, I also believe a child cannot have two mothers in the biological sense. A birth certificate should state who gave birth, regardless as to who raises the child. Perhaps a way forward would be a birth certificate with the birth mother named, plus details of who provided the sperm, whether it be ‘donor -unknown’, ‘father -unknown’ ‘father - unconfirmed / confirmed’ (via DNA testing). There could be an appendix where a child is adopted to include the adoptee details. I also believe where a same sex couple are parents, both parents should have equal legal status. I’ve heard of too many cases with female same sex parents, where one is the birth mother, splitting up and the non birth mother has to fight to have contact with the child.
It’s certainly time the whole birth certificate set up was overhauled.
But I’d never agree that a person born male that identifies as female should be allowed to be registered as ‘mother’. Or indeed vice versa.

@AnneTwackie - you are aware some women have C-sections?

You’re not arguing for greater women’s rights Elsie.

Also, should have been clearer sorry, but I’m not using this to argue for men’s rights I’m using this situation to argue for greater women’s rights. This is a situation close to my heart as it personally affects me.

The reason the father bit is optional is presumably because lots of the fuckers ran off between conception and registration? Or died.

Where the mother is undoubtedly always in the same geographical location as the newborn baby.

Mate, if you don’t want to be called a mother don’t push a baby out of your vagina.

@DuLANGMondeFOREVER exactly, so men are afforded the luxury of not being recorded as the father of their own child and the legal responsibilities of that if they so wish to be and women aren’t, even in cases of surrogacy.