Douglas Murray letting rip about Starbucks is an absolute joy

*merely saying not 'nearly saying'

I agree Bovary.

People tried to 'cancel' JK Rowling fir nearly saying TW are not women. She is somewhat shielded by her millions. Less monied is Graham Lineham of course which is why I admire his bravery.

One thing Douglas Murray said in this video that really resonated with me was (maybe not word for word) ......"currently the most direct way you can help is to basically stand up for your mates if you see them being bullied or lied about"

He is also very clear on how abhorrent medicating and mutilating children in the name of trans is. He believes future generations will look back at us and say "they did what??".

That enraged me too, definitelygc.

Then I thought, if he us wrong about this what other blund spots does he have?

But that's not a reason to dismiss everything he says, more a reason to be clear headed and critical in assessing his arguments.

I think Murray is right. The voices in our society arguing to even question all this ideology must have to come from writers who are mostly self employed and aren't living in fear of being hounded out of their job!

That is an excellent point which is reiterated by Harry Miller. The disproportionate responsibility to speak out because so many are too frightened to do so. One of the aspects of this authoritarian agenda is to make dissent impossible. To criminalise it. One of the tactics used is an immediate, spurious accusation of 'hate speech.' Justice Knowles specifically references this in his conclusion; he cites it as a deliberate tactic for silencing debate.

I think that, by modern standards, Douglas Murrary is far right, or approaching the far right on the particular issue of Islam. Or anyway, he is at the critical end of conservatism which is likely to be accused of Islamophobia.

I've recently come across Douglas Murray and I'm impressed by a lot of what he says. I'm currently reading The Madness of Crowds. This discussion is really interesting and well worth a watch

I think Murray is right. The voices in our society arguing to even question all this ideology must have to come from writers who are mostly self employed and aren't living in fear of being hounded out of their job!

I hugely appreciate the kind of clear thinking shown by Murray talking about Mermaids but I do think feminism is a major blind spot for him. I listened to his Triggernometry podcast and thought he made some interesting points but his section about women was dire. His core claim was that young, attractive women are the most powerful members of society because they can make men do whatever they want. He was describing a scenario of a young woman talking to an older male CEO suggesting that the CEO would be spellbound, dribbling and desperate to impress. It was such a complete misunderstanding of what "power" actually is.

But Douglas Murray isn’t far right or alt right.

People who consider Douglas Murray to be far right, who are the moderate right wing thinkers you read/listen to?

I didn’t say he was.

Well Tommy Robinson has come out against the transition of kids and the materials used in schools, I personally need a stiff drink to recover

And look, this thread has become about defending the right to listen to a range of voices and has been derailed away from discussing what Murray said

Great point. Douglas Murray's anger about a megacorp funding the treatment which is currently under judicial review thanks to the bravery of Keira Bell is visceral. The more publicity this gets, the better.

The only reason that a lot of the outspoken stuff comes from the far right / alt right is because

It is because significant chunks of the left wing have signed up to authoritarian, incoherent identity politics orthodoxy. We have the grim spectacle of Labour's laughable candidates for opposition leader wittering about babies born without sex and signing Stalinist purges while denying their own signature. The control left and the attempt of those who dominate it to demonize dissent? It's not working. Anymore.

I’d really love to know what ‘alt right’ means and who is part of it. I’ve seen so many people described as ‘alt right’ recently who are quite clearly the opposite (Andrew Doyle being a perfect example) that I think it’s become a meaningless term.

They don’t give any kind of a shit about women’s rights

And this applies to the left too - what is their excuse?

"Yes- I think that’s part of what makes me feel uncomfortable; knowing that if I were to be open about my views at work, that is how some of my colleagues would see me."

I think that's an understandable normal human way to feel.

However, when forming viewpoints, obviously, you should do it on the basis of logical argument. It doesn't matter if you share an alleged "bigoted" viewpoint with someone else that really is a bigot on various issues. The only thing that matters is if in the particular case of the belief you hold, is it genuine bigotry or a reasonable position? That you share beliefs with bad people doesn't show much.

You also shouldn't form beliefs because of social pressure to fit in. "The Emperor's New Clothes" and all that.

Personally I feel a responsibility to understand why someone who has such different views to me on pretty much everything else agrees with me on one specific issue. The motivations are rarely the same, and I think this does matter.

There are plenty of dangerous MRA types, homophobes, religious fanatics and bigots opposed to self-ID and I have absolutely no interest in promoting their POV, not least because it really does harm to the GC cause which is not and should not be a fringe extremist viewpoint. The vast majority of people would agree if they had all the information.

(Not saying these men are those things, but I certainly won’t be celebrating anyone associated with Breitbart under any circumstances).

The only reason that a lot of the outspoken stuff comes from the far right / alt right is because there is currency for them in being the controversial voice and / or hate figure. They don’t give any kind of a shit about women’s rights.

I think this idea that you have to agree with every statement that anyone has ever made and that unless you do, their opinion is 'tainted' is not only absurd, but another way of controlling who is allowed to debate and whose opinions are deemed 'acceptable ' to be heard.

this x10000

And look, this thread has become about defending the right to listen to a range of voices and has been derailed away from discussing what Murray said.

I love Douglas Murray. I don’t agree with everything he says, but he is part of that rare breed of writer/journalist who is prepared to say what he believes to be the truth regardless of how unpopular that opinion is.

If you want to know about his opinions on Islam and, in particular, his criticisms of how the media and Western governments react to incidents involving Islamists, this video is a good start.

The interview precedes the publication of The Madness of Crowds by at least a year, but the seeds of the book are obviously there...

I love Douglas Murray and I'm a left leaning feminist. He is an incredible thinker and writer

Me too.

And let's not forget that the version of 'feminism' that is rampant at the moment puts men at the heart of the movement and I am massively critical of that brand of feminism. But it has a loud voice and some people think that this is what feminism is sadly. It SHOULD be criticsed imo.

"It was literally at the same time that Mumsnetters were launching a petition to get the government to examine this problem of immigrants not respecting women’s rights. He clearly hadn’t done his research"

Well what exactly did he say and what percentage of feminists were willing to speak out?

Even if you are correct and Murray didn't know of, and failed to properly appreciate the various feminists that were speaking out on the issue; of course he can still have a fair point that some of them may be staying silent for reason of political identity.

He clearly hadn’t done his research

Until recently, most people had absolutely no idea about the existential threat to freedom of speech as demonstrated by Harry Miller's case. Or about the draconian medical treatment of girls, as demonstrated by Keira Bell's case. Until recently, the insidious advance of this authoritarian agenda was shrouded by a veil of deliberate secrecy. Douglas Murray has played a role in escalating this to front page news. And that is a positive thing.

I love Douglas Murray and I'm a left leaning feminist. He is an incredible thinker and writer.

If you are concerned about that quotation re the EDL I recommend you read his book The strange death of Europe. He actually writes very compassionately about migrants he met whilst researching the book. To reduce his thoroughly researched tomr to "the edl had a point" is deeply reductive and lazy.

I think the worry about not agreeing with “everything” (or rather strongly disagreeing with them in another area, eg women’s rights) isn’t so much about a puritanical need for thought control but more along the lines of “if can be so wrong about that thing, maybe he’s wrong about this”.

I remember when the Munich sexual assaults happened and Douglas Murray complained that feminists were hypocrites for keeping quiet about the assaults because the perps were brown.

It was literally at the same time that Mumsnetters were launching a petition to get the government to examine this problem of immigrants not respecting women’s rights. He clearly hadn’t done his research and was dismissive of issues in modern day feminism that he had no idea about.