What do you think about the rainbow flag?

Of course she doesn’t owe them an explanation. But her same sex attraction is also not respected or protected.

How can it possibly be 2020 and a lesbian saying I’m same sex attracted is getting political and to be avoided?

OverMy I suggest a simple thanks but no thanks. She doesn't have to get political about it. She absolutely does not owe this person an explanation of any kind.

And before you say contact school - it’s all over the LGBT youth guidelines which agree with it being transphobic.

It’s in RL and it is her peers because a teenage lesbian saying I’m only attracted to females is transphobic.

What’s she meant to do say you aren’t my type/I don’t think about you in that way? Why can’t she just say - I’m a lesbian, same sex attracted and it be respected?

EmpressLangClegInChair who are these 'people' you refer to?

Pressuring someone into a relationship they're not comfortable with is never cool whether it's coming from a male, female or someone in between. Nobody I know IRL would ever think this was acceptable.

If these 'people' are random TRAs on the internet then block and ignore.

I also don't understand how one is harder to refuse than the other. They are both equally tiresome and both equally disrespectful of boundaries.

I would guess that part of the problem is that when it’s a boy who identifies as a boy, people sympathise with OverMy’s daughter. When it’s a boy who identifies as a girl, people sympathise with him & the daughter is called a transphobe.

OverMy sorry to hear that is happening to your DD. Is it IRL or online?

Sadly lesbians are often propositioned by men. We are seen as a challenge. It's tiresome.

I can well believe these propositions also come from men who identify as women although I have had no personal experience of this.

I don't see one as worse than the other. I also don't understand how one is harder to refuse than the other. They are both equally tiresome and both equally disrespectful of boundaries.

If it is happening IRL I would consider getting her school / college involved as it's sexual harassment.

Being 'bullied' by strangers on Twitter for not wanted to sleep with trans women is so far down on our list of things to get upset about.

I can see why - you are married.

As the mother of a lesbian teenager who has already had a massive amount of bullying for refusing to consider a male presenting teenage trans girl as a potential partner it’s high on my list of things to get upset about.

I think I'm one of few on my current uni cohort who hasn't switched to wearing a rainbow lanyard this month. Let's not think that they're all wearing them as a statement of being allied and supportive - they're wearing them because they were being given away free with a lot of pressure to accept them - I've avoided by staying away from the building in question most of the month until supplies ran out.

I don't like being pushed into doing/wearing things anyway - I stopped wearing poppies when the poppy-related hysteria got to the levels it is, and I don't agree with the current state of the pride movement in terms of how it treats lesbians who don't want to sleep with penis owners. Wasn't pride all about loving who you wanted to love... not loving who you want to love unless you don't love someone we expect you to? So I've avoided being be-rainbowed as a protest against the bullying lesbians are being subjected to in terms of being pressurised to ignore their own instincts and feelings and sexual attraction. I'm not brave enough to openly challenge it - so I just carry on wearing a range of lanyards I bought myself (because our default one is itchy as fook) and conveniently "forgetting" to go pick a rainbow one up.

Currently I think I'm pledging my allegiance to Sonic the Hedgehog and Mario as I recall...

My response to that exchange is that MF is criticising CCP for not engaging on MF's preferred front. I don't perceive that we have a right to demand that of others as it usually leads to a raising of the ceiling of what that preferred support must look like

I don't really disagree, and these conversations have happened before, when Julie Bindel lost her shit with women who supported her privately but not openly, and I could see both sides of the issue.

Not really sure why we're having this conversation on this thread, though, didn't notice where we were.

Well I’ve seen a flag sticker in a window with ‘the rainbow railroad’ printed above and some gubbins about this venue being a lgbTetc haven (and we are talking a trendy central London gym class with juice bar not a spit and sawdust joint in a redneck town).

Appropriating the underground railway now??

I disagree. The wider context of the tweet is in the thread:

CCP did what she felt comfortable doing. MF acknowledged her for it and wanted her to do more. I find that to be edging towards the sort of purity and coercion that I mentioned upthread about making a pledge with the badge. It's not enough to wear laces, a lanyard and a badge, you need to make a pledge.

Can we stop undermining each other like this?

My response to that exchange is that MF is criticising CCP for not engaging on MF's preferred front. I don't perceive that we have a right to demand that of others as it usually leads to a raising of the ceiling of what that preferred support must look like.

Honestly, even without the appropriation and so on, I'm not a fan of the rainbow flag. It's very stereotypical flamboyant gay male/drag queen in glitter and heels imo. You know "my fabulous gay best friend who I go shopping and cocktail drinking with"

Nothing to do with my life whatsoever.

Weirdly even before I found out about the whole trans debate I failed to love the rainbow flag.
It always seemed very corporate and lacking in authenticity (back then I still believed it stood for L and G)
Now I just feel its outright sinister.

I might read that and think that not every woman has to fight every front in this battle and that Maya is expressing a frustration I've seen from a number of prominent women who have stuck their necks out and got clobbered for it.

But you know what? Women asking for support from other women is not a purity spiral. Women defining feminism as something for women, not men, is not a purity spiral.

I will not criticize women for not doing everything, nor for expressing frustration when they feel unsupported, nor for doing anything I wouldn't do myself as long as they are working towards women's liberation.

Can we stop undermining each other like this? And purity spirals are a specific thing, and we do not help ourselves when we apply them to women setting boundaries for themselves - be it by not feeling strong enough to take on the TRA Totalitarians or by saying that feminism is for women.
It was a useful term to describe the mechanisms of purity politics and groupthink, but it's getting on my last nerve now because boundaries are a big part of what we are fighting for, and this is getting distorted.

I don't like purity politics, and I've never supported it, but there is a difference between a purity purging, demanding pledges and brave women asking each other questions about their mutual fight, and while I don't agree with Maya on this specific point as I think Caroline Criado Perez is doing brilliant on the front she is fighting, I will not accuse her of purity politics.

To be consistent, I was taken aback to see Maya Forstater 'calling out' Caroline Criado Perez on Twitter. Emma Hilton then said that she supported Maya's stance altho' she's walked this back a little when challenged in the comments about it:

I really really do not agree with the tactic of publicly hassling women to make pledges of allegiance and to use their platforms to advance the cause we think they should advance, in the manner we think they should. It’s the exact same tactic we deplore when the other side do it.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1233929426573963267

I can not agree with asking pledges of allegiance and purity spirals. "If you don't support me/this cause in the way that I perceive to be appropriate then the assumption is that you are against me/this perceived good that I champion." It will always remind me of Catch 22 and everything we've learned about coercion from social psychologists.

Perhaps a well established org that claims to represent same sex couples, such as Stonewall, could be persuaded to take it on?

There's an idea.

For sure. Another round of FOI requests would be illuminating, but it’s a big job.

Perhaps a well established org that claims to represent same sex couples, such as Stonewall, could be persuaded to take it on?

Different trusts, different criteria?

I think the only way for lesbians to get IVF on the NHS is by proving they have had 12 failed IUI attempts at a licensed clinic. Seeing as each IUI will cost approx £2k including donor sperm then they will already be £24k down before they get 'free' IVF

Again wrong.

The same sex couple in family just met the normal criteria.

Phil I think it’s really interesting that you don’t think asexual, intersex, queer-not-otherwise-specified people don’t belong in LGBT+, but T does belong with LGB? Why is that where you draw your line?

I don't hate trans people as much as most of Mumsnet does

No one hates trans people. We like women's and girl's rights.

None of them have actually read the fucking thread though, have they? Just a sentence from Lippy’s OP.

This thread is being discussed on Twitter twitter.com/vonny_bravo/status/1233736565475696640

INAPPROPRIATE situations. G-d I wish this site had an edit button.