What do you think about the rainbow flag?

I could be wrong, and I don't know much about modern-day dating ethics, but I've never (never) heard of a black person accusing a white person of racism for not wanting to sleep with him/her. Anyway, i share the view that preferring a particular subset of the opposite sex is nothing like being same-sex attracted.
Returning to the rainbow flag - yeah, sad to say, it used to be all about a benign celebration of Life's Rich Pageant but now it just makes me think "Oh, these people won't like me unless I keep my mouth shut".

I am sure someone has done an analysis of human representations alongside the rainbow flag - how many men, women and trans women there are. I imagine lesbians don't rank high (probably below woman allies).

None of that helps protect my daughter from the lesbophobic bullying she’s experiencing in school though (you know, girls refusing to change next to her for PE in case she looks at them 🙄).

Her school is covered with rainbows and full of LGBT positive slogans and diversity assemblies, but school seem powerless to stop bullying. She sees the rainbow flag as a lie, an empty promise, a symbol of shame and powerlessness.

No wonder she’d rather be a straight boy.

I sometimes wonder whether our worry for lesbian teenagers today comes from a perspective of being over-hopeful about what teenage experiences of sexuality can be like.

I am 32, I’ve been out as a lesbian since I was 17 (‘out’ in the sense of being honest with at least some people about it, and in being actively socially engaged with other lesbians both in the RL scene and online). In my younger days I absolutely, absolutely had other (young and fucked up) people - lesbians - pushing past my boundaries. Based on my recollections of that time and conversations I’ve had with friends and lovers of varying ages in the years since, I don’t think that’s unusual, then or now. I do think that it surprises women who have not really had a ‘lesbian youth’ (either because they are straight, or because they came out later), because we don’t really expect that women are perpetrators of sexual assault or coercion or bullying of that particular flavour, and it almost feels like I’m washing our collective dirty laundry to share it now which is ridiculous...

I think we can be guilty of underestimating the challenges or dangers of our own youth, and then perceiving what young people today have to cope with as a new and shocking thing. Because we were young and invincible, and now we’re older and more empathetic and more anxious.

I hope I’m not engaging in whataboutery, and I definitely don’t mean that we (women or girls of any age) should just expect this and put up with it, or push people away at the time but never speak up or recognise it as a widespread violation or whatever... but I do think the absolute priority is in ensuring that young lesbians (as well as young bisexual women and young straight women) know that they have the right to define their own boundaries concerning their bodies and their sexual relationships. I don’t think it helps them for us to politicise that along lines of whether they date trans women, trans men, or non binary people, as part of that boundary-setting. I think it’s more constructive if we help them develop the tools to be straightforward and assertive in a range of situations without necessarily having to chuck other people under the bus at the same time (also creating additional aggro for themselves), where that’s possible.

I can recognise that anxiety from (mostly-het) people and institutions who are desperate to be seen as trans allies may feed into an unwillingness to be sufficiently emphatic on this. You know, a fear that they will be pilloried on twitter or RL-picketed or something if they unequivocally say “genital preference is not transphobia”.

I think you're right Rufus

Women are always the ones having their boundaries pushed.

Also worth checking out the Boxer Ceiling on Facebook -
www.facebook.com/BoxerCeiling

Some enlightening posts there from gay men.

I also very much doubt many gay men feel any pressure to date trans men

The same conversations are being had

I think its just easier for them to say no and/or laugh it off

duLang thank you for the datalounge link, has a little look and it was enlightening for sure. There is a thread (I won't link to it) called transgenders to gay men - you're transphobic unless you fuck me with a slightly more frank discussion similar to the one we're having now.

The rainbow flag is everything to do with same sex attraction.
Initially yes. However, it seems to me you later contradict yourself by saying it's about LGBTQ+ and always has been.

It would be interesting to get the opinion of gay men as well, I doubt they see it as being hijacked by the trans lobby. I also very much doubt many gay men feel any pressure to date trans men or shudder when they see the rainbow flag.
Because they're men. You may also note that males-who-identify-as-women don't often complain about pressure to date other males-who-identify-as-women either, though they'll explain lesbians are being cruel and enforcing the "cotton ceiling".

As usual it's women being told how to think, how to feel and who they should be attracted to. And now it's being suggested on here lesbians should flounce and reject the rainbow flag because it represents the whole of LGBT+ (as it always has done). What is that going to achieve?

Not true, the rainbow flag was designed in 1978. It started with L&G, then LGB and then T wasn't added until much later. You may also recall that early Trans organisations such as the Beaumont society explicitly banned homosexuals. They were for cross dressing heterosexuals only. The notion that this was all some "big happy family" is patently false.

I don't think it's helpful to try and make out that the rainbow flag is somehow sinister for lesbians and has been co-opted by the trans lobby to force them to date trans women.

I don't need to imply anything. I've simply shared my own experiences, what I've witnessed and felt. You've demonstrated your disregard for a young lesbian's welfare at school when faced with the very situation you've insinuated is nothing to worry about.

Yes it is a LGBT+ flag and some women who identify as LGBT choose to date trans women. This does not take anything away from the women who identify as L who only date women. It's a flag for everything.
What's a lesbian? What's same-sex attraction? Please tell me what experiences the "trans lesbian" Stonewall ambassador Alex Drummond shares with me, of growing up and being attracted to women. Do you wager the familial response upon learning of that Alex was attracted to females was "well, just wait until you've found the right man?"

If the rainbow is a flag for everything, then it cannot only be for sexual orientation.

Which is the whole problem.

There are actually many gay men coming forward now expressing exactly the same concerns as on this thread. Not many are FWRers obviously as this is primarily a women’s feminist discussion forum. But if you look in more general discussions you will find them.

This photo popped up on my TL today - reportedly found at a university. See any issue with that, Sappho? I’m sure you do. Thing is, I see your assertion that young lesbians should just be quiet that they don’t want to date males (transwomen) because they are same-sex attracted, rather than just don’t fancy that particular individual male, as the thin end of the wedge that leads to statements such as this - clearly hijacking the rainbow flag in a homophobic manner - becoming more widespread in the young “LGBT+” community.

Also, your dismissal of things not being important because they are online - young people now experience so much of their life online in a way we never did, or even do now. YouTube, Tumblr, Twitter, newer platforms that us adults really don’t get at all....these interactions are as real to young people as homophobic catcalling in the Street was when we were their age exploring our sexuality publicly. Online bullying is worse in some ways - you can’t go to your room, shut the door and get away from it. It pings you 24 hours from your phone.

What’s with all this identifying sapphos.

🤦‍♀️

Being a lesbian is not an identity

Being gay is not an identity

Being bisexual is not an identity

For crying out loud anyone who has come out as a lesbian will have faced a load of misogynistic shite in their life.

I've lost times of the amount of times I've been told I need some cock. And yes I've had this from women too.

I am not saying young lesbians aren't having a hard time, and social media isn't a big influence. I am saying this comes from all sides and they will unfortunately have to navigate attitudes like this all their lives, it's not just from TRAs.

You need a thick skin to be a lesbian that's for sure.

t would be interesting to get the opinion of gay men as well, I doubt they see it as being hijacked by the trans lobby. I also very much doubt many gay men feel any pressure to date trans men or shudder when they see the rainbow flag.

Just search any/all trans keywords on datalounge.com: it’s not safe for work, and the discussion is much more frank than it is here.

It's fine to be same-sex attracted as long as.... You know.... You aren't being open about it.....

Social media is very influential on young people as that is where their peers are and where they get a lot of their information from. Easy to scoff if you're married and not young and impressionable having to navigate dating and relationships all the while being told that same-sex attraction is transphobic and lesbians can have penises.

The rainbow flag is everything to do with same sex attraction.

It would be interesting to get the opinion of gay men as well, I doubt they see it as being hijacked by the trans lobby. I also very much doubt many gay men feel any pressure to date trans men or shudder when they see the rainbow flag.

As usual it's women being told how to think, how to feel and who they should be attracted to. And now it's being suggested on here lesbians should flounce and reject the rainbow flag because it represents the whole of LGBT+ (as it always has done). What is that going to achieve?

I don't think it's helpful to try and make out that the rainbow flag is somehow sinister for lesbians and has been co-opted by the trans lobby to force them to date trans women.

Yes it is a LGBT+ flag and some women who identify as LGBT choose to date trans women. This does not take anything away from the women who identify as L who only date women. It's a flag for everything.

Sex, race, religion, height, weight, disabilities. All of them could be dealbreakers. There is no need to make a huge deal about it.

This is a thread about sexual orientation. Not about dating preferences in general. This is about same sex attraction. Where women are sharing experiences of a rainbow flag that many of us no longer think has anything to do with lesbians.

You wrote your posts in response to the mother of a young lesbian who is being bullied in school because she doesn't want to date a male-bodied person who identifies as a woman. Because that choice is being portrayed as a "transphobic preference," rather than a lesbian's legitimate and legally protected sexual orientation.

What is the point of even having a flag, or the word lesbian, or any of it, if we're not supposed to say anything?

FloralBunting I have never dated a trans woman. I am unlikely to ever date a trans woman. That is my individual preference. I have nothing against women who choose to do so.

Do you know who has given me the hardest time about my sexuality? Given me a good talking to about how lesbians should think and behave? Told me I am wrong in my thinking? Women here on mumsnet. On this very thread in fact.

Do you know who has never given me a hard time? Trans women.

The point is there are plenty of dealbreakers for people. It all comes down to individual preference.

Sex, race, religion, height, weight, disabilities. All of them could be dealbreakers. There is no need to make a huge deal about it.

Some women choose to date trans women, some don't. There is nothing wrong with saying no without further explanation.

Oh very neat. How to take a perfectly reasonable assertion that someone is allowed to say no, but manage to layer on plenty of 'be nice' messaging with a whopping great dollop of 'if you mention that you are exclusively same sex attracted, it's a bit like being casually racist, so you should keep it quiet'.

Both Sappho and Willis have taken two unrelated concepts - a) that you are allowed to say no to someone for any reason and you don't need to explain and b) if you do reject someone for some reasons, you might want to keep that quiet, and being exclusively same sex attracted is one of those reasons and illustrated exactly what the problem is in a few insidiously nasty posts.

They'd be the ones saying to OverMy's daughter that of course she can say no, but don't make it about being a lesbian, ok? That's mean.

Black women have repeatedly asked not to be used in trans analogies. Because it’s racist.

Black women are not in anyway more similar to men/male people with variant gender identity than black women are to white women.

Biological females are biological females.

I understood what you meant, Sappho's - there's nothing wrong with saying no to someone, you owe noone an explanation to whether you want to date them or not.
We're attracted to who we're attracted to.
Your explanation makes perfect sense.

Sapphos

Please tell me you did not just compare a young lesbian asserting her boundaries by saying no a teenage-boy-who-identifies-as-a-woman with racism?

Please tell me I read that wrong.

OverMy - hope your daughter is alright . Sounds horrible. She absolutely should be able to define her boundaries, to have these respected with no questions asked.

I'm returning to this thread to explain more about my experiences of the rainbow-bedecked places and why I am a bit wary. Sadly, I don't think that the bullying faced by lesbians is uncommon or restricted to only internet "trolls." Some people seem to not see this. To me, the rainbow does not mean lesbian at all anymore. It means LGBTQIA+++, which is dominated by trans and queer. The "L" part of the acronym is often forgotten about. When the rainbow flag does perchance signify a space is something to do with sexual orientation, then it's usually about/for men. Also, if someone could give me a coherent definition of queer, I'd be ever-so-grateful. For exhibit A of why the rainbow isn't for same-sex attraction anymore, I'd point you to the vitriol directed at the LGB Alliance for wanting to separate sexual orientation from gender identity.

There are barely any lesbian nights/venues in the city I live, and the ones that do have men in them. Both men-who-identify-as-women and those who just call themselves men. Neither group respect women's boundaries, but we're supposed to put up with it. Especially the first one. Because "inclusion." These venues have the flag.

I'm not allowed in certain lesbian social circles because I genuinely do not think there is a difference in whether I deny sexual access to a man-who-identifies-as-a-woman or just a man. This goes against the "LGBTQ++ community" saying we need to be "inclusive." So I'm not welcome, or in some situations I may come along but I can't say anything about what I think. But these women would proudly wear rainbow flag apparel.

I went to a LGBTQ+/queer history event recently that didn't mention one woman, nor the word lesbian. Not once. But they did talk about drag queens (who by contemporaneous accounts identified as gay men), called them transwomen. The organisers stopped communicating with me when I asked them why they erased lesbians and bisexual women from our own history. The event was advertised with a rainbow flag and "inclusive."

The thing that really breaks my heart, more than everything else, is how often I meet interesting, smart, sweet and quirky females who are same-sex attracted but no longer want to identify as a women. Some of them will bind their chests or want to modify themselves permanently with hormones or surgery. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to celebrate that as progressive under the banner of the rainbow flag. I find it upsetting, because I love women as women. I fail to see how what is happening to women (who a few years back would likely have been my lesbian sisters, rather than women-who-identify-as-men-or-nonbinary) isn't a form of internalised misogyny and homophobia, in a cultural environment that I think is specifically lesbophobic. I'd like to see women's wonderful bodies being left alone and women free to live as their amazing selves without them feeling any need to change anything. But maybe I'm just not "inclusive" enough.

OverMy okay so imagine a white lesbian is asked out on a date by a black lesbian.

It's fine for her to turn down the offer of a date.

It's not necessary for her to qualify this rejection by informing the black woman she would never consider dating her and she is only attracted white women. This could come across as racist.

Hence, no need for your DD to make a song and dance about it. A polite refusal is just fine.