What do you think about the rainbow flag?

Yeah, it’s weird that T wants to organise separate stuff, but doesn’t seem to like it when LGB wants to do the same!

Up here we have the long established Sparkle, which predates the T becoming part of the acronym by quite some time... but I suspect the organisers/average crowd are quite different to trans Pride in Brighton!

Brighton has a separate Trans Pride.

The main pride event has hardly any trans presence at all.

That was anti WPUK, pro trans protest though, not pride.

Interesting the picture you shared showed the majority of TRA protesters have the trans flag not the rainbow flag.

Fair point, happy to amend what I said.

I don't agree that it is the place of heterosexual women anyone regardless of sexuality to encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag.

From outside the WPUK Brighton meeting ‘Lesbian Not Queer’

But get the L out ARE lesbians?

I don't agree that it is the place of heterosexual women to encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag - it's just another form of control.

No one expects all lesbians to agree on everything, but you can’t reasonably mistake the women of ‘Get the L out’ for heterosexual women!

DuLANGMondeFOREVER the whole 'Get the L out' didn't sit well with me at all. Fine to have your own feelings, preferences and boundaries and if that means removing yourself from LGBT culture and rejecting the rainbow flag then so be it.

These women claimed to be speaking for all lesbians and that we all want the L to be separate from the GBG which felt unsettling and controlling.

Gah, no one is encouraging rejection of the rainbow flag.... we’re saying we feel it’s being hijacked and no longer means what it used to mean to us. Simples :-). YMMV, obvs.

I think we’re all very open to acknowledging a ‘dark side’ to ‘LGBT culture’ given what we’re talking about here .

If you understand that female-on-female predation can go comparatively unchecked in LGBT circles and agree that this is a ‘dark side’, maybe join up a few more dots about how incorporating ‘TWAW’ into that environment might play out.

And before you say contact school - it’s all over the LGBT youth guidelines which agree with it being transphobic.

I’m afraid I didn’t quite follow what this meant. Are you saying that “lesbians must be open to dating trans girls” is part of some sort of inclusion code the school adheres to? If so - I would absolutely be challenging that, yes. I would be expecting the school to be clear that everyone gets to define their own boundaries re: who they are interested in pursuing relationships with, and also I would expect the school to become involved in one student aggressively pursuing another by not taking ‘no’ for an answer, regardless of the sexual orientation, sex, and gender identity of those involved.

I am really sad, and angry, that your daughter is having to go through this, but at the same time I don’t think it’s an indictment of the rainbow flag, and of how increasing (still minority) trans acceptance is always trampling over the rights of lesbians. There is no inevitable tension here, all that is required is that the trans girl’s gender identity is respected (we refer to her using appropriate pronouns and so on), and that your daughter’s right to choose her own partners based on her own criteria is respected. I don’t mean it’s easy or that there won’t be people who will shout that its transphobic; I do think it’s worth remembering that in the wider world, transphobia and homophobia often emanate from the same sources, which is a large part of the reason for a historic connection between LGB/T identities, surely.

encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag

Who is doing that?

Sappho, you realise that a lot of us here who now feel threatened by the rainbow flag are lesbians? And OverMy has stated that she’s not heterosexual.

Cwenthryth It's okay to acknowledge there is a dark side to LGBT culture. It's not all rainbow cocktails and Pride festivals.

As you say same sex attracted women can be predatory to other women.

In terms of young lesbians I think a disproportionate amount of blame for their problems is given to the trans lobby.

It's really up to each individual to square their feelings about the rainbow flag with the dark side of LGBT culture.

I don't agree that it is the place of heterosexual women to encourage young lesbians to reject the rainbow flag - it's just another form of control.

I don’t think we should restrict who we’re allowed to be concerned about based on our own sexualities, I find that quite short-sighted. We can all be concerned about things that have not or will not directly affect us.

I have also experienced behaviour that was essentially sexual assault from other women in club/scene environments that was seen as acceptable/amusing by the crowd there as it was female-on-female (or at least a lot less of an issue than male-on-female). It’s definitely a ‘thing’ - I’m not sure what it has to do with the gender ideology hijacking of LGB & the rainbow flag though.

It's also not like the politics associated with the rainbow flag only affects a small segment of the population. I work in a primary school and education more generally, so I go to work and see things like Rainbow clubs for kids who haven't yet hit puberty, or programs and speakers with rainbow flags stamped on them, and at best I wonder what kind of crap they are going to be telling the children, and at worst I know they are giving them inappropriate material, not to mention they are basically indoctrinating the kids in a perspective that some of the parents won't be comfortable with and I don't think that is going to have good outcomes in the medium term or long term.

OverMy I acknowledged your DD must be having a shit time and tried to provide some constructive advice on how she could deal with it. If you disagree that's fine, no need to be rude about it.

I think there is a general concern from older heterosexual women about the plight of young lesbians, I wasn't referring to your DD in particular.

And if you can’t see the difference between the usual growing up and boundary setting experiences that all woman whatever their sexuality go through with being actively group bullied and accused of transphobia because your same sex attraction is not respected let alone protected - I despair.

My youth - male hits on you, I’m a lesbian led to pestering, lesbophobia, vile comments. Clear victim and aggressor.

My daughters youth - male hits on her, I’m a lesbian, person identifies as a woman, she is still a lesbian and the exclusionary phobic aggressor.

Plus - who says the mothers of teenage lesbians are heterosexual?

I’m not.

Argh bold fail^^

I know the current concern for young lesbians from older, heterosexual women is coming from a good place but I don't think it's particularly helpful

And mothers of young lesbians don’t think the denial of our daughter’s traumatic experiences by middle aged, long-term partnered lesbians is particularly helpful either.

Thought it was just me** that has started to shudder at the rainbow flag in recent years. Glad to see I am not alone. PP summed it up quite succinctly:
Ubiquitous, evidence of a less than enquiring mind, depressing corporate shit.

Kevin’s?
Wth
Lesbian ffs.

Dulang

The rainbow washing at my daughters school has firmly positioned her sexuality at the bottom of the heap.

Oh we are so LGBT friendly that “banter”about lesbians is not stamped out. That it is used as a pejorative. A way of saying ewwww. My daughter believes in Kevin’s and gay pride but the institutional rainbow wash leaves her cold.

@NellWilsonsWhiteHair

brilliant post. I absolutely agree and relate to everything you say.

I know the current concern for young lesbians from older, heterosexual women is coming from a good place but I don't think it's particularly helpful.

I also came out relatively young and can relate to having my boundaries pushed by older, more experienced lesbians.

I think it’s more constructive if we help them develop the tools to be straightforward and assertive in a range of situations without necessarily having to chuck other people under the bus at the same time (also creating additional aggro for themselves), where that’s possible.

Yes to this. And also to drum it into all young people, whether they are male, female or somewhere in between that they must respect other people's boundaries.

@Dulangmondeforever - that's absolutely dreadful, your poor daughter. It's painful to imagine just how gutting that would be for a young person. :(