R4 Today (28 Feb): Tom Holland interview equating trans debate to the Reformation

Comparing it to the reformation was all fine until he started talking nonsense about trans concepts only affecting a tiny minority, male and female being religious constructs, etc.

I think the riposte is "be fair". And that's mild.

I can think of other two-word responses that are less mild. Honestly, what a dickhead. Why is it that so many academics, people who are supposed to be critical thinkers, have taken on this ideology unthinkingly? You would really hope for better from historians, who should be particularly alert to the impact of ideologies that demand compliance and groupthink.

I really felt it was much more an academic point about social change rather than pro trans? I didn’t feel he came down one side or the other.

Yes, he wasn't saying it was right or wrong, but saying that a new group were taking over the establishment and imposing their belief. Time will tell if that view takes hold among the masses.

He was not being honest when he questioned why the trans issue is such a talking point when few (apparently) are trans themselves. He knows (judging by his tweet) that it is a contentious issues and why.

Recently the Church of England has had to institute two more parallel systems for those that do and don't believe that women should be priests and bishops.
On that one, I don't agree with the "status quo" system and I think it's daft we have to have it but it means some people (the minority) can have a world in which their (IMO prejudiced) world view is supported and the rest of us (the majority) can have a world in which sexism has no place.

What a sensible woman. Of course.

I am also reminded of Ferdinand and Isabella.

In fact I'll go with Elizabeth 1st solution, which summarised was broadly 'believe what you want, shut up about it, and leave everybody else alone'.

I've been thinking about this "be nice" admonishment. I think the riposte is "be fair". And that's mild.

The Reformation took four monarchs (govt of the time), two of them long reigning, a fuckton of executions and burnings to try and force and scare the nation into co operation, the public feeling against the oppression and atrocities and divisiveness of it all seriously threatened the monarchy and the country, and it ended with accepting that two sets of beliefs had to be free to live alongside each other.

Since you couldn't morally, ethically or practically compel half the country to pretend they believed something they did not.

There is going to have to be a system of third spaces where people who want to believe there's no such thing as biology and choose their sex can do it to their heart's content, while not destroying and commandeering the spaces of everyone else. Otherwise, you'd better get the bonfires ready, strap in and wait for the electorate to get really, really, really pissed off.

mobile.twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1233303129459953666

boatyard

I really felt it was much more an academic point about social change rather than pro trans? I didn’t feel he came down one side or the other. The are struggling to fill the Today programme at the moment and it showed this morning.

Funny how no-one ever asks anyone to 'be nice' to actual women and girls.

In fact, quite the opposite.

I thought you meant the Spiderman actor too! Off to Google...

I had to google him. So he's a writer, not a superhero actor.
Wikipedia says his wife is a midwife. I suspect she knows a woman when she sees one.

So essentially another man deciding what’s important to women. Thanks Tom! So glad you’re around to tell us these things.

Some people are taking him to task on Twitter.

By 'mediocre' I mean male-bodied athletes who have been unable to win competitions against other male bodied-athletes but are now placing in competitions against female-bodied athletes...

I don't want to be nice anymore if that means biological males who have been convicted of sex offences will be housed in the female prison estate and enabled to commit further sexual offences against vulnerable women.

I don't want to be kind anymore if this leads to young children being given off label drugs without their parents' consent.

I don't want to be caring if it means girls will be denied sporting opportunities and mediocre boys will start winning female sporting events.

This is not the Spiderman Tom Holland then?

I caught the end of it and also couldn't believe the minimisation (well, actually I could, but you know). Also, seemed to be suggesting that the new ideology is the progressive position and that we just need to give the oldies time to catch up and get used to the idea. Is that right? Who is Tom Holland?

only a small number of people so not sure why its so heated

When he said people, he meant men.

I think you are right needmoresleep but the message I heard was still a variation of "be nice".

It felt more like a religious slant on the wrong side of history slogan. The times they are a-changing. Get over it.

I thought he was being an idiot.

I think any parallel to the Reformation is broader than that.

It is argued that the invention of the printing press enable the rapid spread of ideas, and thus social upheaval (both reform and counter-reform) as the existing establishment: the Church and the King, were challenged. Eventually it settled down and "protestants" as we know them are largely represented by the good old CofE.

Now we have the Internet, which gives scope for ideas, whether good, false or straight batty, to circulate instantly. We as a society will eventually learn how to cope and filter but it is too new and still developing. I think the batty includes flat earthers, creationists, and much of gender ideology. (I do accept/am sympathetic to gender dysphoria and accept that there are issues that need to be better understood.)