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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

House of Lords- Women Spaces Hurrah

90 replies

Harshmallow01 · 25/02/2020 15:54

hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2020-02-24/debates/D9459D1B-FADF-4765-AB3F-F55D4B322060/details#contribution-2670DB0F-6187-447E-AAC2-492C68088654

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TedsFederationRep · 29/02/2020 07:31

Lord Lucas has managed to kick-start a response from government.

Here is an excerpt from today's Telegraph, headlined:

"A win against wokeness: Women have a right to female-only lavatories

Government to ensure proper provision of separate facilities for women and for men

Increasing numbers of publicly accessible lavatories - like those at The Old Vic theatre in London - are being converted into facilities that can be used by all.

However, public authorities have a duty to provide safe spaces for women in the lavatories in their buildings, and making all facilities gender-neutral may fall foul of building regulations.

Several peers complained this week that gender-neutral lavatories - which one Tory peer, Lord Lucas, said had been introduced by “woke” public bodies - had women feel uncomfortable.

The Conservative hereditary peer called on the Government to explain the terms of the existing law better so managers of public buildings recognised they were able to make lavatories male or female only.

Civil servants in the Department for Communities and Local Government have now been asked to write to the British Standards Committee to ask whether technical guidance on building regulations needs to be clarified to make it explicit that women must have access to female-only facilities.

A Government source said: "It is clear that there needs to be a public service provision for everyone in our community and all people should be treated with dignity and respect.”

"The Government is committed to maintaining safeguards that protect women.”

"Proper provision of separate toilets for both men and for women, which has long been a regulatory requirement, should be retained and improved."

Here is the link to the full article although it is probably behind a paywall.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/28/win-against-wokeness-women-have-right-female-only-lavatories/

Justhadathought · 28/02/2020 13:40

Think labour have got further and further towards the student politics end of the spectrum - even when I was a student I would have thought this lot to be a bit naive, unrealistic and reactionary

That is because Momentum coalesced around Jeremy Corbyn, isn't it?
He has spent his life as a campaigning for every left wing cause imaginable......and was never a leader. More of an ideologue.

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2020 12:38

Sounds like a potential flashers' charter. "Sorry, officer, I must have forgotten to lock the door".

Quite.

ArranUpsideDown · 28/02/2020 09:34

Very tired of this myth being trotted out at every possibly juncture.

Full Fact runs a live factcheck during PMQ and sometimes during BBCQT or for the latter they post one the next morning.

We could do with a women's charity running a Full Fact style factcheck of zombie claims around women's issues plus sex/gender discussion zombie claims (like the hate crimes, murder/suicide statistics).

TimeLady · 28/02/2020 06:52

RedToothBrush

Went to open door to a cubicle which was 'green' only to find a man in his 60s with his pants around his ankles.

Sounds like a potential flashers' charter. "Sorry, officer, I must have forgotten to lock the door".

endofthelinefinally · 28/02/2020 06:18

We all need to write to Lord Blencathra.

FleetsumNLangCleg · 27/02/2020 19:45

I liked this from Lord Blencathra: This excessive nonsense has to stop. I repeat that I deeply respect those who want or need to change their sexual identity, but I want the Government to stand up to the militant, fascist transgender lobby—the small militant minority—particularly those who try to change the sex of children. I and many doctors are deeply concerned about the work of the Tavistock clinic, which is giving puberty-blocking drugs to children aged 11—children who may not know at that young age what their sexual identity will be in later life. Giving sex-change drugs to young children might completely destroy their lives if, later on when they mature, they come to a different view on their sexual identity.

Going well beyond mixed sex toilets

StrangeLookingParasite · 27/02/2020 18:56

“there is considerable evidence that LGBT people, especially transpeople, are more likely to be attacked, more likely to suffer abuse and hate crime and more likely to be at risk of suicide because of the pressure”

Very tired of this myth being trotted out at every possibly juncture.

Siameasy · 27/02/2020 09:11

Have you noticed he has not been called a Terf AT ALL?!

niceclock · 26/02/2020 23:22

I read the whole thing and am happy to see that the issue is finally being debated by sensible people but what does such a debate mean in real, practical terms?

midwestspring · 26/02/2020 20:40

Like @SapphireSeptember I do find myself agreeing with both some conservatives and also Tony Blair quite often.
Maybe I'm just growing up and realizing not everything fits into one neat box?

SapphireSeptember · 26/02/2020 20:31

I've found myself agreeing with a few Tories, Heidi Allen, Anna Soubry and now Lord Lucus, despite my politics being on the far left of things. I think you can find allies in the strangest of places. (It's 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' sort of idea, I suppose.) I've considered myself a Lib-Dem since I was 12 and first became interested in politics, now I'm 31 and they're a mess.
Either way, he gets it, and Tanni Grey-Thompson's contribution to the discussion was brilliant. ❤

5zeds · 26/02/2020 18:13

There are occasions when one accompanies someone of the opposite gender, such as when I am looking after my daughter or when a carer is looking after someone of the opposite sex and wants to use a facility where both of them can go. But people who are genuinely advantaged by this change are essentially the woke administrators of public institutions. I see very few people who would genuinely benefit from having universal gender-neutral toilet provision.
Smile

midwestspring · 26/02/2020 18:13

I consider myself to be a Lib Dem, I consider many of those currently running the party to be neither liberal nor democratic.
I am happy to support education and health by paying more taxes, I want a society with decent life chances for all.
I don't want an illiberal, authoritarian, anti female state. I am happy to listen to opposing views to mine and expect the same curtesy in return.
I refuse to accept that the center let alone the left ground of British politics has to be given up has to be given up to this "kimono wearing, baseball bat wielding" group.
I am not conservative.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 18:08

Indeed. The left has become too ‘right on’ and has lost sight of its roots.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/02/2020 18:01

It may simply mean that you're a conservative, when what is under threat of not being conserved includes women's rights, safeguarding of children etc.

Lordfrontpaw · 26/02/2020 18:00

I think labour have got further and further towards the student politics end of the spectrum - even when I was a student I would have thought this lot to be a bit naive, unrealistic and reactionary.

Dad was involved in the local party and they would have just hated/resented him now - educated, well off - he would have been one of the ‘eat the rich’ targets I suppose. He was born on the arse end of Glasgow, went to uni, worked his arse off and set up his own business. A lot of the group were the town ‘professionals’ who wanted a fair society.

magicrainbowbeans · 26/02/2020 17:39

"Oh god does this mean I am now a Tory?"

For the first time in my life, I am leaning in that direction. And I never would have predicted that.

MsTSwift · 26/02/2020 17:38

Oh god does this mean I am now a Tory?

MrsSnippyPants · 26/02/2020 17:33

He is asking for help again, this time in particular reference to school toilets:
twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1232665635236261889?s=20

TheABC · 26/02/2020 17:14

It's a start. I am glad that the lack of disabled provision was raised: long overdue for improvement.

endofthelinefinally · 26/02/2020 16:27

Surely there must be rules about dishonesty in debates in HOL?

Thinkingabout1t · 26/02/2020 16:12

Striking that all the Tories except Bloomfield took a strong pro-women stance.
Bloomfield I think was trying to be even-handed, as she also said “We have heard some people’s concerns that progressing the rights of transgender people should not have a detrimental effect on the rights of others, especially women. We are committed to maintaining the safeguards that protect vulnerable women and allow organisations to provide single-sex services. The law makes it clear that separate male or female services exist for a reason: to provide gender-appropriate services.”

Cross-bencher Tanni Grey-Thompson was superb, as always.

The Lib Dem women seem to have just swallowed Stonewall propaganda whole and continue to regurgitate bits without ever checking the facts, which have now been made widely available.

The one Labour voice was feeble “be nice” waffle.

It shouldn’t be like this.

Thinkingabout1t · 26/02/2020 15:50

For anyone who hasn’t had time to read the Hansard report, these are my notes about the transgender issue, from reading it online (thanks for link above).

Baron Lucas, Tory, pro-women: “Stonewall should put away its kimono and baseball bat and settle down to the idea that maybe it needs to modify its rather extreme views. The Fawcett Society should listen to its founder and the quote that is on the statue in Parliament Square, ‘Courage calls to courage everywhere’, and get involved in the discussion in a serious way.”

Baroness Brinton LD, pro-trans: either dishonest or just accepting TRA propaganda, ie women can be paedophiles too, asks for figures on who attacks whom in changin rooms (widely available - men attack somen) and says: “there is considerable evidence that LGBT people, especially transpeople, are more likely to be attacked, more likely to suffer abuse and hate crime and more likely to be at risk of suicide because of the pressure”.

Baron Blencathra Tory, pro-women: “ My blunt message to the Government tonight is this: when will you stand up to the small, militant, transgender fascist lobby and say that the rights of 32 million real women and 800,000 wheelchair users are more important than the rights of tens of thousands who identify as transgender?”

Baroness Greengross, Cross-bench - sensible points about incontinence; didn’t touch on TR issue.

Baroness Nicholson, Tory, pro-women. NHS has misunderstood EA2010, and “A man could wear a frock, rouge and nail gel every day of the week for 10 years without qualifying for the protected characteristic of gender reassignment according to the Equality Act 2010.”

Baroness (Tanni) Grey-Thompson, pro women. “I have been involved in elite sport for the last 40 years, and we have seen that a small number of horrible individuals will use their position to get close to children, women and boys. That is why we need to have protections in place. There is a reason that the UN, WaterAid and other organisations have called for single-sex spaces. Social convention is there to safeguard women and girls to prevent harm. Eroding social convention will make it harder to maintain these boundaries.”

Baroness Barker LD, pro-trans, claims that TW have the right to use women’s loos, without making clear that isn’t supposed to include those who self-identify, which i believe is the vast majority: “We are proposing to take away from trans women a right that they already have: trans women use women’s toilets all the time”. She ignores the fact that TW offend at the same rate as other men: “Andrew Gilligan when he was a Times journalist ... made a rather crude FOI request about different types of crimes, and he concluded that it is men whom women should fear: it is not trans women who are the perpetrators of the crimes against them.”

Baron Kennedy, Lab Co-op, pro-trans in a please-be-nice way: “This is not about satisfying an aggressive, militant lobby, but about ensuring that we are all treated with respect.”

Baroness Bloomfield, Tory “The [Equality] Act is clear that trans people should be treated according to the gender they present” (surely she is wrong, since this suggests self-ID is already legal?) “although it also states that transgender people can be excluded from single-sex places if it is proportionate. However, it is for providers to determine this on a case-by-case basis. The protected characteristic of gender reassignment encompasses people who are intending to, are undergoing or have undergone gender transition. This does not require any medical intervention to have occurred.”
To me, that last part shows how foolishly the EA was worded, since no one knows what anyone else is “intending”. But I still don’t think the EA says “trans people should be treated according to the gender they present“.

ArranUpsideDown · 26/02/2020 12:35

Helen Lewis posted this from Tanni Grey Thompson - very courageous discussion of her incontinence etc.:

House of Lords- Women Spaces Hurrah