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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I fucking despair

134 replies

InTheTempest · 24/02/2020 21:34

I frequently read this section but have never posted before.

Just had an argument with my brother tonight about trans issues, self ID, and in particular women's sports. He's a heterosexual man- who I've never heard express an opinion on things like this until now. We were discussing biological males being able to compete in women's sport and he just couldn't see the issue in it. That 'there's always someone who has an advantage for whatever reason so it's just a luck thing'. For example being born in a rich country will give athletes an advantage etc. I tried to explain that we don't segregate sports by those factors though but we do segregate by biological sex.

He also didn't understand the issue over women's rights to safe spaces, minimising it completely- 'people can be dicks to each other anyway' Hmm and basically saying how likely is it that men are going to using self ID to abuse women.

I just give up, I really do. I mean I don't think there's any point trying to discuss these things with people who think like this. I don't have the energy. He was really quite rude to me and tbh I'm pretty angry at that tonight.

I guess I just want to know, how do you deal with men around you who think like this? How do you feel about it? My male relatives wouldn't consider themselves sexist but they are in ways they can't even be bothered to try to understand (my dad couldn't see the issue with grid girls in F1 before).

Just feeling very frustrated with it all tonight. It feels like women will never reach equality.

OP posts:
EwwSprouts · 25/02/2020 10:01

When it comes to sport I always think a picture tells a thousand words.
This every time.

I fucking despair
FloralBunting · 25/02/2020 09:44

I think men have an enormous leap to understand the impact of sexism on women. I was trying to explain to a man the other day that I wasn't surprised that he wasn't as invested in women's liberation as I was, because he benefitted from women not being liberated, and while he may not indulge in unrepentant sexism, he has no reason to challenge the current status quo.

He actually got angry with me and even suggested that I should thank him for being interested, and that he could be better at feminism because his motives to liberate me would be altruistic and self sacrificial rather than self serving like mine.

He didn't even see what he was saying and how he was proving my point. This is why men are never feminists.

ErrolTheDragon · 25/02/2020 09:05

But probably for a majority of men, they do think 'transwomen are women except for relationship purposes'.

I'm not sure it's the majority, but I think it's more that they see transwomen as not men - so they divide the world into proper men and others. This regressive mindset - which is derogatory to women and to transwomen - is explicitly present in the language used by eg the Green Party with the category 'non men'.

definitelygc · 25/02/2020 09:00

I think it takes a while for some people to realise the implications of all this. About a year ago my dad was telling me "this is all a phase" and to calm down but now he's finally got it he's absolutely raging.

Other men are just misogynists and all of this plays right into their hands. I had a woke bro "friend" of mine telling me TWAW last summer and then last weekend I heard him tell the most disgusting misogynist joke about Serena Williams (I can't even bear to repeat it). Men like this are beyond help I think, just steer well clear.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 25/02/2020 08:38

Keep at it. My DH and I have 3 DD’s. I don’t think he really got it until I explicitly laid the problems out to him in relation to the children. He gets it - but still doesn’t quite understand the male intimidation aspect.

Also, he thought that if a full bodied transwomen goes into the female communal changing room they could be done for indecent exposure... not according to centreparks! The whole situation is soo ludicrous that sane men - who aren’t misogynist - can’t believe it’s true - rapists in female prisons, men in changing rooms, men in women’s sports etc..

Put it to him about what he will do in a realistic situation - he’s at the sports centre- sees a man - not staff- going into a female changing room behind a 14 yr old girl- they are obviously not together - no one else is around - what does he do? Does he help the girl or leave her alone with the man and pretend the man is really a woman.

Lordfrontpaw · 25/02/2020 08:24

Often people don’t ‘get it’ until it affects them.

So my sister used to take the mickey until I enlightened her with the theory that as a lesbian she was hatefully transphobic for not wanting to sleep with a woman with a penis.

My right-on BIL - I send even need to do anything with him. I was reading and article about how (English gymnastics?) boys were to be allowed to change and compete with girls if they IDed as girls. He has a daughter who is into dance and gymnastics. He’s also religious.

Lordfrontpaw · 25/02/2020 08:19

Just show him a photo of the high school runners - the girls race. Where the winner (and second place) has a very clear bugle in places a girl don’t have a bulge (and muscles like Samson). Ask him what is going on in this photo?

BlingLoving · 25/02/2020 08:14

Ita not much, but I discussed this with my 85 year old dad recently. He had no idea it had gone this far and was appalled. Hes very much in the "live and let live" camp but he was outraged by concept of self ID and what that means for womens spaces, sports etc.

So there is hope.

ChakaDakotaRegina · 25/02/2020 07:42

I get it - when someone first brought this up with me two years ago I felt so uncomfortable and couldn’t believe how hostile and homophobic they were being and it really didn’t matter about a few loos or over 40s cycling races because surely they would never do prisons... and then you have your wtf moment and start working back through it all again.
I’ve struggled to explain it to people too - the breadth of the impact and the separation from lesbian and gay rights. They really cornered the niche in ‘vulnerability’ and ‘mental anguish’ which women somehow aren't allowed to carry off in the same way.

RomeoLikedCapuletGirls · 25/02/2020 07:39

^^ sorry, obviously I don’t mean these things are bad, but just that men will often be able to apply the distinction if it affects them.

He’s not applying the distinction when it comes to sports because it doesn’t affect him.

RomeoLikedCapuletGirls · 25/02/2020 07:37

Is he heterosexual? If so, ask him if he would have sex with a trans woman.

If he wokely says yes ask him if he would without knowing.

If not, why not?

NonnyMouse1337 · 25/02/2020 07:35

I haven't read the full thread, but is this the first time you and your brother have had an extended conversation about trans issues?

Is your brother a sporty person? I'm quite surprised about the dismissal around sports as it's the one area that most men instinctively understand, even if they don't get the other concerns. Women are more likely to not care about men in women's sports. I guess it's entirely feasible for some men to not grasp the implications.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that most people change their minds fairly slowly and over a period of time, especially when it comes to difficult and complicated issues. I think many of us here were very supportive of trans ideology and didn't give it much thought, but over time questions and doubts surfaced as we were exposed to certain troubling concepts.

When you are firm in your own position, having had your time to come to your own conclusion, it is very tempting to dump all this information and frustration on another person in a well-meaning attempt to get them to see your point. The other person though will feel swamped by all the questions and points and simply dig down on their position because they feel pressure to pick a side or feel like their own personal values are under attack.

I experienced this when I started to lose my faith in god and realised that the Jehovah's Witnesses were a cult. There was so much about the organisation that I had discovered and I was so angry and frustrated at my mum and others around me who didn't seem concerned or who were very devoted to the belief system. I want to grab them and shake them and shout how can you believe all this? I wanted to sit them down and show them all the disturbing things I had read about the internal workings of the religious group.
It's a very strong urge and a very understandable reaction. And I get similar feelings with the trans stuff.

However, the best method is actually a sort of drip feeding over a long period. Some people get things straight away. Others take longer. It requires a bit of skill in slowly encouraging a person to reflect on difficult questions and come to a conclusion by themselves. You ask relatively innocuous questions or make certain points on different aspects. Rather than unloading it all at once, you make small points here and there, on different occasions and on different topics. Not confrontational or labelling someone as stupid, sexist etc, just pointing out some absurdities or some things being weirdly unfair.

Some people might never change their mind. But I do think the drip feeding method helps a lot of people to feel able to give themselves permission to start asking questions and over time their position might start to shift. It takes time and a lot of patience though.

Most JWs are afraid to ask difficult or controversial questions. They are afraid to challenge the religious authority because it's viewed as heresy. I think most people who swallow trans ideology feel the same. They haven't given it much thought but they know anyone who questions or challenges it is vilified as a transphobe. So they don't see the point in engaging in such debates or conversations. The instinctive response is to deflect or shut down or avoid anything to do with critical analysis in this area.

The key is giving people room to reflect and change their mind. Their initial response is to be dismissive. Lots of people who used to believe in god were initially dismissive of arguments put forward by atheists, maybe even mocking them or getting angry with them. But over time, as they listened to the questions and points ... And maybe they even tried to counter such facts with their own ... The doubts start to grow... The unease... And they start to question themselves and wonder why they are finding it more and more difficult to justify such beliefs. Until they have to admit to themselves that they too are now an atheist.

Beansandcoffee · 25/02/2020 07:35

For years we have been taught to let people live their lives as they wish. We all knew a neighbour who liked to dress up but that was it. As a mum I’ve told my kids they can what they wanted. I embraced the many genders, my boys wore green and red clothes and they played with dolls. However it has changed now and we are having to question how we respond to the demands of self ID, equality training by mermaids and our sport being questioned. It feels like women can’t be nice anymore if we want to protect our sport and our spaces and the word women.

SirChing · 25/02/2020 07:30

Most of the men that I know get it, once I explain about the possibility of people with beards performing intimate care on their female family members. THEN they are furious. But it seems like a possession thing "no other man touches my wife" etc. Still, if that's what it takes to get them to understand, I will invoke the "other men treading on their turf" thing every time. Might as well harness their misogyny for our own ends.

Out of interest, I wonder why so many men hate women so much?

Floisme · 25/02/2020 07:29

I'm very, very careful who I discuss this with and wouldn't even bother with any woke types. But so far I've actually found that ordinary, decent men get it. They may not feel that strongly about it, because, unless they have daughters, they think it doesn't really affect them. But in my (limited) experience they do understand. In fact I would say they get it quicker than women because they don't have that 'be kind' reflex. And they know what men can be like.

Which probably doesn't help you much op - I'm sorry.

jadefinch · 25/02/2020 07:26

I've spoken to a few men who do get it (maybe proportionally even more than women), and I think the woke bearded ones who are TRAs only exist on Twitter as I've never spoken to one in real life.

But probably for a majority of men, they do think 'transwomen are women except for relationship purposes'.

InTheTempest · 25/02/2020 07:17

To me I don't understand how some women just don't understand this stuff, how they don't consider themselves feminist. Feminist does not equal man hater or trans phobe. I don't know at what point I became conscious of it all but I know for certain I am now and it's made me look back over my life and see all the sexism, social conditioning, and I know the effects it's had too. I'm amazed that I was born in the late 80s and this is how things are for women. I should have been more aware sooner. What will things be like for my daughter? And her daughters. It's awful to imagine this.

Wrt my db, there is literally no point in trying to discuss with him again or point him to anything suggested. It's not a surprise really when I think about it that he isn't interested in something that affects me, why would he be, that's just how it's always been. As a separate issue it's just really brought to my attention why I should go very low contact and not really discuss things with him ever because there's not really a good relationship there.

Thanks for the conversation on here. It really, really helps.

OP posts:
rabbitwoman · 25/02/2020 06:49

Gosh, I had a row with my sister about this. She could not see the issue at all. She seems to think she'll be okay because she's 'gobby' - she'll just tell someone to fuck off, or shut up; I tried to explain that her rights to stand up for herself, to tell someone to fuck off if they are making her feel uncomfortable, were actually being eroded. That SHE could end up in trouble, for transphobia. That SHE could lose her job. I just don't think she believes me. So I will just sit back and wait for her to realise....

theflushedzebra · 24/02/2020 23:07

Some men really don't care about women, or women's sport, and can be very derogatory about women's sport. But most would agree that women having a sporting category is fair - even if they think that eg. women's tennis is "crap". If they really think about it, that is - and aren't just using it as some sort of argument against women.

Just hold your head up high, OP - you're right, he isn't. And this will come out in the fullness of time. I think people will look back on this time of males being allowed to enter women's sport as one of those strange glitches in society that happen every now and then.

After all, Martina Navratilova can't be wrong Wink

fascinated · 24/02/2020 23:05

Some people can’t envisage the potential wider consequences arising out of the application of the same rules to different facts... apparently! A worrying thought.

theflushedzebra · 24/02/2020 23:00

Show him this, OP.

boysvswomen.com/#/

Goosefoot · 24/02/2020 22:54

Sibling relationships have a lot of baggage at times.

I was having a beer with my sister and her friend this weekend, someone I really hadn't talked to before. He's a gay man, pretty young, I guess in his 20s. We got onto this topic as a bit of an aside, but it was interesting. She things I am largely crazy about this, that the extreme positions are just that, she doesn't see the problems legally, in terms of stats, etc. She always worries when I talk about it in public, even though I go to some effort to not sound like a crazy conspiracy theorist.

Anyway, she actually got a bit upset, but her friend, interestingly, saw the implications right away. No idea what he thinks of it all really, but he saw the implications in terms of language and how it had changed, he was surprised about the collapse of sex and gender but could see where it could lead.

I think in some cases it's about a certain kind of mental agility with concepts more than any kind of reflection on people's moral standing. An ability to see how ideas are linked and how to take them apart. Some people are just very concrete.

ErrolTheDragon · 24/02/2020 22:50

how can I respect the men around me who think like this.

If they don't respect you then why the heck should you respect them?Confused

There are men who get it - mostly, at any rate. Mine was pretty good anyway, having a daughter has rounded off his education.

InTheTempest · 24/02/2020 22:42

That's what I thought, that the sport thing would make it obvious to more men.

DB is too old to be of the woke generation I think although still relatively young. He's a fan of South Park and I even tried appealing to him through that- as they seemed to understand what was going on with this stuff 10+ years ago! I think part of this is not just his views on this topic but just the way he seems to respond to me in general which has frustrated me tonight but that's a separate issue.

It did just really make me think though, how can I respect the men around me who think like this.

I've had arguments with men on tinder about these kind of issues too! Unmatched many a fool whose misogynistic views come out of the woodwork. Good to find out at an early stage...

OP posts:
AppleJane · 24/02/2020 22:37

It's so hard to know what people really believe inside their heads. Even the guys who say they think we should all be equal may secretly think 'but some of us are more equal than others'.

I wouldn't even attempt this type of conversation with my brother simply because if I said the sky is blue he'd take the opposite view. It's a sibling thing I guess.

Fortunately, all of the men in my life that matter do get it. Choose your battles wisely and figure out who is worth your effort Smile

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