I fucking despair

My dh once said that he didn't care about trans issues because it's never going to touch him; my face was a picture and I think I spat some words at him and left the room in high dudgeon. Then he remembered that we have a daughter, and now he's onside enough to be tolerable.

My DH is a (very) decent club runner and some of his mates are even better, representing England/holding records/winning marathons. I don't even need to test the waters with them on the subject, they all just get it instantly. Some of them have even brought it up with me. If you look at the top 2000 runners in the country on Run Britain, less than 1.5% of them are female. It's so obvious in running, so perhaps that helps. DH instantly backed up a female colleague at work who dared assert that males shouldn't be in female sports, he wants single-sex spaces and sports preserved for his DDs and future generations. He's only 30 so generation woke, too. He's quite grumpy and stubborn for 30

The sports thing - men do often get this, if they have some experience competing or training with women. If not, they may not.

As recently as the 90s it was a big deal in pop culture to show women as being equal to men in sports and strength. GI Jane, GirlFight - they not only played down differences but suggested that only sexists would believe they existed at all. Remember the sergeant (I think? Viggo Mortensen, anyway) coming into the shower to talk to Demi Moore in GI Jane? And films still tend to reinforce that view. No one these days would peep about something like the likelihood of women being able to get some of the more physically demanding careers.

Men are happier being crude too Floisme. Women aren’t meant to be crude or rude are we? Men will go “er no thanks it’s a chick with a dick” and everyone will laugh. I’m socialised not to be crude or rude but even if I were to say “no, they’ve got a penis!” I will be shouted at.

The point is to get to the stage where others’ disapproval is unimportant; truth has the highest virtue of all.

I for one am extremely grateful for Jessica Yaniv.

I was speaking to a very pleasant, well meaning, young man yesterday and he was extremely concerned that trans people should not be bullied, a sentiment I concur with.

I told him about Yaniv and he didn't really believe me. He is going to research it for himself on the internet, which is really the best possible option.

He will discover that, in addition to the massive entitlement, narcissism and bullying of vulnerable women, Yaniv has a period fetish and an interest in underage girls.

I shall report back on whether his views have changed. I am confident that he will appreciate that, as well as trans identifying people being entitled to be protected from violence (which we both agree on) that he will have learned that some misogynist men with AGP (I explained AGP to him too) pose a danger to women and to the rights and freedoms of transsexuals and trans identifying people.

So, er, thanks Jessica, I really appreciate your continuing helpfulness in this debate

I'm not sure it's a man/misogynist thing, just a "who can be the most woke" thing.

My DH and my male and female gay friends all get that TWAW is a nonsense. Ironically, it's when I've had conversations with the women in my life that they've played out almost exactly like the OP's did with her brother.

They don't see the big deal about males in women's sport, and think I'm being a bigot by thinking self ID is a bad idea. When I say "no males in female spaces please" they hear "no transwomen in female only spaces" and simply cannot discern that it's not transwomen I'm worried about, but predators who will exploit the system.

Suggest that he takes up the issue with Joe Rogan

He knows what he's talking about

Men aren't so bothered about being kind, but more importantly, they know what men are like.
Yes this is what I'm finding too.
When I discuss it with women you can see them tensing up and looking over their shoulder - as am I - whereas men are more likely to go straight to, 'Are you having a laugh?' Or 'That's insane!.'

I've a feeling that on the whole, men get it more than women do. I'd need to see the stats, of course, and I could be wrong. But women are trained to be kind so they think that being "inclusive" is the right thing to do. Men aren't so bothered about being kind, but more importantly, they know what men are like. They know the risks of putting teenage boys in girls' changing rooms, they know how much stronger and heavier a male rugby player is than a female one, they know that some men will use women's toilets for nefarious reasons.

I tend to be less worried about men as a group than I am about the massive extent of regulatory capture - the police, the law, schools, child protection charities and so on. I find that really frightening.

I think a lot of guys understand this and support the women
Yeah I have to say I've been pleasantly surprised and cautiously encouraged by how many men I've spoken to do get it. What they're not doing (at least not the ones I know) is speaking up. But then I'm very careful myself.

Another picture to show him
www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FDmsHm1gUwAAKTcJ.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fsuperfooty%2Fstatus%2F1038932924177952769&tbnid=CJ9G_oqYAovHcM&vet=12ahUKEwjmoe3I3uznAhVBihoKHQaTBR8QMyghegQIARBE..i&docid=o_4tEIEUDXQDjM&w=792&h=710&q=hannah%20mouncey&ved=2ahUKEwjmoe3I3uznAhVBihoKHQaTBR8QMyghegQIARBE

Also ask him does he think there is such a thing as a woman with a penis and would he fuck one

InTheTempest

I think a lot of guys understand this and support the women, certainly men like myself who have competed at sport before. I think your brother is at best being totally disingenuous, or worst a complete plonker.
I was peaked back in October 2018, when I saw McKinnon on the podium with two women there. At first I thought it was a wind up, then checked it out against a more trustworthy sporting site.
I started a thread on a cycling forum, highlighting why this should never happen - anatomy and physiology are the main reasons. Many people on the forum (mostly men like myself) agreed with me, but there were a few sneery replies form people who obviously hate women.
Maybe you should give your brother a few examples, (the pictures of McKinnon the cyclist and Brazilian volleyball player Tiffany Abreu are quite start) of women's v men's sporting achievements?
In 2017, the US women's football team (probably the best in the World) lost to an U15 boys team 5 - 2.

www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

Under 15 boys can run faster than FloJo's women's 100 metre record, something which no other woman has come close to.

Your brother is allowed to call feminism "negative" yet doesn't like being called "sexist" - sounds like double standards to me.

Your DB is extremely fragile (like many men) and can’t face the truth. He cannot even face a tiny amount of discomfort before he starts to bleat!

I will throw a few bones to the poor fuckers 😂(men). I work with men; I’m the only female. None of them are buying TWAW for a moment. They are all over 30 tho and not woke

My partner understood a lot this stuff immediately but I wonder if it's because he was the only brown kid at school (and one of the poorest) so has experienced structural discrimination first-hand. Empathising with women is not the same as being one though and so I don't think he'll ever really "get it" like we do. Just as I don't think I'll ever fully understand what it's like for black women in the UK.

Men,as a class, only think things aren’t fair when it’s not fair on them. They are quiet about sexism, inequality etc until they perceive themselves to be a risk of losing their position

Bling - it's true. Every area of life where women have carved out a little corner for themselves (even Mumsnet! and women-only spaces) are seen as women having some sort of legalised privilege over men - even though these things are only introduced to redress the balance of the incredible disadvantage of women since time immemorial.

For some, it feels like they're saying "ha, you had it so good for a while, now some males are being women and having some of that too! You brought this on yourselves!"

Plus I do think some feel that transwomen are genuinely more oppressed than women, they feel more sorry for the males that don't feel male than they do for women.

I think for a lot of men, even the feminist allies, it's hard because on some instinctive level they understand that if the status quo changes, they lose out.

eg women only shortlists/ preference for women to be hired/promoted etc. I've lost count of then number of men who have told me that is it "fair to simply exclude a man who might be perfectly capable/the best simply because he's a man?" And my response is always, "no, it's not fair. But that's what's been happening to women and minorities for centuries so some rebalancing is needed. Plus, intrinsic bias etc means that almost inevitably the white man will get the job even if he isn't the best candidate." But it's incredibly hard for them to process. the idea of being excluded is so incredibly foreign to them. And perhaps that's why they find the trans women are women thing so hard - they're not used to being allowed to do or go wherever they want.

My dh sort of gets it primarily because he’s involved in umpiring and I’ve been talking to him about the duty of care aspect. What happens if a female team brings along a TW? how will he umpire things like dangerous tackles? How does it sit alongside his responsibility to protect players on the pitch?

1/10

I don’t think any man will ever fully get it - my DH is a good egg but he comes out with some stonking sexism occasionally.
I read White Fragility and found that all of it also applies to sexism and “male fragility”. DH hates it when I say “stop being fragile and hear what I’m saying” ie when you air a grievance all men care about are their fragile feelings.