I fucking despair

There are only a few reasons why women go along with the TWAW line

1. belief that women should all just be nice regardless
2. you get woke points
3. you get male approval
4. you get to pretend you're virtuous, that you're putting others before yourself (when you're actually NOT putting other women before yourself)
5. it's fashionable.

You don't need to break it to me I'm well aware that women can have differences of opinion
I also know that some women will say owt to be on the side of men. Those two things can both be true.

That's because there are a lot of women who will do anything to get male approval.

Really? No women believe this, they just act like they do because they either have been told to be nice or want male approval?

I hate to break it to you, but women are capable of having differences of opinion that have nothing to do with men, and there are about the same variety of bright vs dim women as there are men.

Well I’ve just seen a tweet by the Ri asking for people who identify as women to complete a survey about women in science. It’s not going well and they are a bit sniffy...

But there are many women who are willing to go to the mat on this issue, and the motivation seems to come from something deeper down IMO. They are true believers.

That's because there are a lot of women who will do anything to get male approval.

Anyway, one thing I have become convinced of is that most people do not have a natural understanding of statistics.

Yes, and that common sense is something of a misnomer.

Many men are more suspicious of other men than women are. Dh is - I have done the “oh he’s so nice” etc whereas dh will roll his eyes and is often far more cynical about men’s motives. Often non beardy woke men are instantly suspicious of self id.

A lot of this 'no difference' thing is down to not making the very simple distinction between individuals versus the population. Some women will be sufficiently strong enough to be firefighters. Most won't be. Saying that women who are capable of a job should be allowed to do it if they wish in no way leads to the idiotic suggestion 'feminists want women to do 50% of all jobs' which MRA types trot out.

We run into this though on so many issues, people who can't sort out when it is logical to talk in terms of the group, and when it is appropriate to talk in terms of individuals. And you see mistakes in both directions, people talking about one when the other is relevant.

Feminism has had a particular problem though I think in allowing this, because even those who will allow for physiological differences at the level of bodily performance will tend to deny differences in terms of behaviour or even personality - the fear seems to be that allowing that there are valid differences we could note about men and women as groups would mean we are going to stop treating individuals as individuals.

Anyway, one thing I have become convinced of is that most people do not have a natural understanding of statistics.

Women don't "get it" because they've internalised the "be nice" socialisation put on all girls from a very young age. Women are brought up to be nice even to the point of being detrimental. Women only "get it" after they realize they've been taken for a ride.

I'm not sure I think that's really it either. People do often think they should be nice, for sure, and there are a certain number of people who think about it only at that level. They tend to be people who have a pretty shallow iew of what is nice, TBH. But there are many women who are willing to go to the mat on this issue, and the motivation seems to come from something deeper down IMO. They are true believers.

• I suppose if it is that easy to identify as something you are not, then tomorrow I will identify as being 91 years old and break the 1 hour cycling record for over 90's, despite having not trained for fifteen years. If anyone has a go at me, then I will accuse them of being agephobic.*

Nah. Because you'd be impacting another bloke.

In fact it would be surprising if these differences didn't exist to some extend with human mammals

There's a whopping clue in the term 'mammals', for one thing.
A lot of this 'no difference' thing is down to not making the very simple distinction between individuals versus the population. Some women will be sufficiently strong enough to be firefighters. Most won't be. Saying that women who are capable of a job should be allowed to do it if they wish in no way leads to the idiotic suggestion 'feminists want women to do 50% of all jobs' which MRA types trot out.

Castration anxiety doesn't explain why so many women don't get it

Women don't have castration anxiety.

Women don't "get it" because they've internalised the "be nice" socialisation put on all girls from a very young age. Women are brought up to be nice even to the point of being detrimental.
Women only "get it" after they realize they've been taken for a ride.

Men don't have the same pressures to "be nice" instead they simply cannot fathom why someone with a penis would want to be viewed as someone without a penis (regardless of whether or not the TW has a penis or not), and think that women should be nice and accommodating and accepting of these people, so that they don't have to.

Castration anxiety doesn't explain why so many women don't get it.

I am tending to think that so many of the reasons we discuss come down to us being, on a cultural level and often on an individual level, extremely alienated from our own bodies and physicality, and maybe from physical nature all around.

I used to have a hobby farm and I was pretty up on a lot of basic level animal behaviour and veterinary stuff, and I can't tell you how many times I hear someone say something about men and women, that there is no difference or that it's wrong to think there is a difference, (and this is both from gender advocates and sometimes feminists,) and I think, well, that is clearly true about some mammals, it isn't impossible at all. In fact it would be surprising if these differences didn't exist to some extend with human mammals.

Not much more to add to this apart from
I completely feel the same!

I tried to have. Conversation with my brother (a very woke Californian 🙄)
He said I was "like a racist". Right? Because saying TW shouldn't be in women's spaces is EXACTLY the same as racial segregation.
He accused me of "ranting" when I was actually stating some pertinent facts I thought he would learn from.

I'm still hurting actually. I can't view him in the same way at all. I can only hope he will peak-trans in his own time, but it's harder for men.

A poster here once outlined exactly why men don't see transwomen as a problem for women.
Lack of empathy is one.
They can't see TW as men in any real way because of their own deep seated castration anxiety. Even if they know most TW have a dick, they still can't fathom why a man wld want to be viewed as a woman bc to them a woman is a man without a dick.
They have a fear of being tricked into sex with someone with a penis so they'd much prefer TW being separated and kept away from them.
Obviously men deny that, and say they just think women should be nice.

What's the point of men's athletics?
Race horses are faster. And as for cheetahs...

I had a conversation with a (male) friend once in which he said 'Well, what's the point of women's sports anyway? The fastest strongest person in the world is always going to be a man, so we should just have men's sports, and then women are sort of a disabled category.'

No thought at all that 'men's sports' aren't much use to women, or that girls and women want to compete fairly, or that, actually, if we want 'thing that goes fast' we'd be better watching a horse than a bloke, or...

well, or any number of things I was too speechless to say at the time.

Back in 2018, the day when I read about McKinnon, I googled for about an hour, quickly reading up about the whole sordid farce.
Then I phoned British Cycling to ask them if they had heard what happened and what their views were on it.
The reply was quite calm, divorced from reality really. They were aware of it and suggested that I look up the IOC rules. I asked them if they thought it was fair and they didn't answer.
So, the turkeys just bury their head in the sand and go along with the lunatics.
I suppose if it is that easy to identify as something you are not, then tomorrow I will identify as being 91 years old and break the 1 hour cycling record for over 90's, despite having not trained for fifteen years.
If anyone has a go at me, then I will accuse them of being agephobic.

Just google gov stats on violent crime. So, men are responsible for (can’t remember exact figures), but 80-90% violent crime, and practically ALL sexual violence (something like 98%). Predators are opportunist so mixed sex changing rooms/loos WILL result in women and girls being assaulted who wouldn’t otherwise be.
Sports. Look at this. Quite graphic boysvswomen.com/#/
Also, the comparator is not any man v any woman. To assess unfairness, look at comparative speeds/results of the BEST female athletes with the BEST males. Males will ALWAYS win.

In practice some men just turn off listening to “women’s issues”. Is it worth your while bothering with him? Of course if you have a mutual MALE friend, he’ll likely listen to him, more than to a woman.

It's as if some young women aren't getting the reality check.

Yes. There's so much pseudo-feminist propaganda around about how women are "strong", women can do anything men can do etc that it's possible for women to appreciate how massively, massively stronger men are. It's exacerbated by those kinds of classes that tell women how to fight off an attacker by using martial arts moves and that kind of thing - it just creates a false sense of security.

There was something I read a long time ago that stayed with me. It was a young policewoman who was set up as "bait" for a man who'd been attacking women in a particular spot - this was in the days when the police actually thought this an acceptable way of trapping someone. As soon as the guy grabbed her she was shocked by how much stronger he was than her - and this was a woman who'd been through police training, obviously. Of course she was rescued by police colleagues but the point is she realised that without them she stood absolutely no chance at all.

True Floisme. It always crosses my mind when women and men talk about female on male violence as if it's equivalent to male on female. Obvs all violence is bad and domestic violence is horrible, but a woman hitting a man is just not the same as a man hitting a woman.
That's something my OH understand s completely. He knows full well that if I tried to punch him he wouldn't like it but he would not actually be fearful, because he could neutralise the attack, whereas I know (from previous experience) that when a man goes to hit you you fear for your life and you can't do much to stop it.
I'm strong and tough but just not physically match for even a weedy man.

Some men have this daft idea that female equality means that women are as physically strong as men
I have to say I've encountered a number of young women who think this too, which I find quite alarming. I mean I believed that when I was 10 but by the time I came out of puberty I'd wised up. It's as if some young women aren't getting the reality check.

Some men have this daft idea that female equality means that women are as physically strong as men, or that we want people to think that we are. Sometimes at work I need help with something heavy and I'll ask a bloke. He'll inevitably make a joke about "oh, what happened to feminism, eh?" as if he's caught me out reverting to being a weak and helpless woman, when really it's that I know my physical limits and don't want to do my back in!
Some men think equality means that noting any differences between men and women is sexist. Like we are all identical humans with slightly different genitals, rather than constructed completely differently.
Also, they see TW as being vulnerable and not really men. The least we can do is let them join in with the girls. Dp totally gets it about men in women's prison, in terms of the Karen Whites of this world, but looks uncomfortable when I say NO men should be in there, ever, because he feels that post genital surgery they should be treated as female. I guess I used to think that too, that you could "become a woman" which I don't anymore. Actually, the prison one is interesting because usually men and women immediately go "rapists shouldn't be in women's prisons but TW are vulnerable and it would be dangerous for them to go to men's prisons" . The first thought is always what about the man, no thought at all for the women.
I always answer that with the fact that lots of types of men are very vulnerable in prison and that's why you need vulnerable prisoner wings.
My son gets it about women's sports because he follows women's football, and because he used to play against mixed teams but now they are older they are separate and he knows that puberty makes boys much faster and stronger. I think males who do sports probably understand more often.

It can be sad and disappointing when someone we care about expresses those kinds of views. Especially if we previously thought or hoped they “got it”.

I may or may not seek to persuade them, and change my thoughts about them for the worse .

I also think that men are more likely to be accused of being oppressive and bullying and are very cautious about being accused, more so than women.

Pretty much all the people I speak to can see that the current mess with identity politics is insane, however if you are a man, and especially a straight, white man, you don't have a good position from which to say you feel oppressed.

I am concerned that we are living in a cultural bubble in which the person who can claim the most victim points gets to have the biggest platform.

This heirarchy of oppression was one of the things that I disliked about the political landscape in the late 80s and early 90s.

Of course some people are more oppressed than others, but everyone should have a voice and most people have absolutely no idea what oppression and problems people have faced in their lives, bullying at work, narcisitic, cruel parents, child sexual abuse, rape, bereavement, suicide in the family, the list is endless.

I just think we have to be really careful about heirarchys of oppression as narcisists will use the cloak of opression and victimhood to conceal power grabs and entitled, abusive behaviour. This has been demonstrated many times on social media videos showing TRAs abusing women while shrieking about being oppressed.

Yes, I think most men grasp the unfairness and potential predatory aspect, but view it as a women's issue and therefore not something they should comment on because they always hear that straight, white males should shut up or that they aren't qualified to comment on issues because they are a straight, white male. So I don't blame them for disengaging.

The ones that do speak up tend to have daughters, so they realise that ignorance and inaction isn't an option.

However, the issues affected by the trans lobby are sufficiently wide that it's easy to get most people on board by discussing things that catch their interest.

Get them to watch some of Joe Rogan's stuff or the Triggernometry interview of Harry Miller. These are ordinary blokes talking about institutional capture, the police recording hate incidents as non-crimes that stay on your record forever without any trial etc. Most men will be on board once they realise how extensive the trans stuff is. How insisting that biological sex is real can get you in trouble with your employer, or that the trans lobby are trying to remove the legal protections around people being deceived into having sex etc. This moves it from 'women's issue' to 'shit this could happen to ordinary blokes like me'.

Men and women tend not to give a shit about political issues until it starts to affect them in some way.

Some men also feel like it isn't their place to speak out about women's issues. I don't really agree, but enough women do that I can't really blame someone for thinking that.