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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Cartoon in the Morning Star

388 replies

Cwenthryth · 22/02/2020 21:26

Kristina Harrison (prominent gender. critical transwoman, WPUK supporter) just posted this on Twitter - apparently it was published in the Morning Star.

KH wrote “This cartoon appeared in The Morning Star earlier this week @MStarOnline It is a horrific, generalised demonisation of trans people which does not belong in a civilised society, let alone a socialist newspaper. I condemn it utterly. Trans people & progressive opponents of identity politics are owed an unequivocal apology, an explanation & reassurance about what action is being taken to ensure that the line between fierce but legitimate argument and bigotry is never crossed again. Totally unacceptable. (not posting a direct link as I don’t want to facilitate any pile on against Kristina, clearly this is a sensitive personal issue for a transwoman).

Comments are supportive of KH so far. I thought it’d be a good topic for discussion here - does this ‘demonise trans people’ or does it baldly illustrate safeguarding concerns with self-ID? Is it different from the popular/accepted(?) ‘Fox identifying into the henhouse’ analogy? Hopefully we can keep things civil and respectful with no personal criticisms of Kristina.

Cartoon in the Morning Star
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
testing987654321 · 23/02/2020 22:40

Also in the light of the removal and apology for the cartoon, consider the ways in which including "GC transwomen" in the movement to push back against TRA overreach limits what can be discussed, shapes the discussions

Yes. Note how there was quite a heated discussion here as to what the cartoon meant. As soon as a male says "but I think it refers to me and that's upsetting" that discussion would get really awkward.

I wonder if men have any concept as to how often women feel uncomfortable or upset around men? I am fed up of us having to be so polite the whole time.

TinselAngel · 23/02/2020 22:37

If you don't believe in gender identity (ie you're gender critical) you can't be transgender. You're just gender non conforming.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/02/2020 22:33

I'd see how a GC GNC male could exist (and in fact it's surprising and a bit sad there aren't more of them), but would be confused as to why they'd call themselves transgender.

TinselAngel · 23/02/2020 22:33

Great minds SpartacusLangClegicus Grin

Cascade220 · 23/02/2020 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cascade220 · 23/02/2020 22:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TinselAngel · 23/02/2020 22:32

The truly GC transgender males

Surely that's an oxymoron?

TorkTorkBam · 23/02/2020 22:30

They are having "GC" now as well are they. FFS.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 23/02/2020 22:28

The truly GC transgender males can be counted on one hand (using that term carefully Mumsnet HQ, because the people I refer to don’t use women’s spaces or identify as female, so it makes little sense to use ‘transwomen’.

They also don’t police the speech (inc cartoons) of women, and their own activism is aimed at other male people, not women.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/02/2020 22:16

Also in the light of the removal and apology for the cartoon, consider the ways in which including "GC transwomen" in the movement to push back against TRA overreach limits what can be discussed, shapes the discussions that do happen, and ultimately relegates women's concerns to secondary status.

Every person in our society has been socialized to defer to males. Some of us have unpacked and rejected that socialization, but most have not, and that has serious implications when involving males in something like WPUK (which is why some of us had concerns about that from the beginning, and are not surprised to see how it's playing out).

TinselAngel · 23/02/2020 22:14

Again, think carefully about whether a male expecting you to do so is a useful ally.

And about what they might ultimately expect in return for their allyship.

R0wantrees · 23/02/2020 22:10

Imagine being a trans widow whose husband is so ingratiated in the feminist movement that favours can be called in and cartoons denounced and withdrawn virtually over night.

Yes Flowers

I thought of the important Make More Noise article last night & this morning:
'A Plea for Help for Feminists from a Trans Widow'
(extract)
"What can you do to help women like me?

Don’t call my ex “she” when you talk about him to me. Call him what you like when you speak to him, but describing him with female pronouns to me, makes my life not make sense and my daughter’s life not make sense.

Don’t, under any circumstances, refer to him as my daughter’s mother. She only has one mother and it is not him.

Seek out and share the stories of trans widows. Help our voices to be heard. Late transitioning men leave women and girls in their wake- wives, mothers, daughters and sisters who are asked not only to rewrite their past but to celebrate a new future that they do not recognise.

Many trans widows report feeling gagged by everybody else lauding their partners as “stunning and brave”. Our ex’s are often celebrated twitter personalities, newspaper columnists or the subjects of documentaries, but those of us wives who leave are forced to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals. Support those women who put themselves and their children first.

When you hear of a late transitioning male, let your first thought be for these women and how they are affected. If it is somebody in your circle of acquaintance, seek out the wife or the mother and let her know that she has your support.

Defend our use of the term “Trans Widow” as some people question its appropriateness. However it is the name that we have chosen for ourselves and it is enabling us to find each other and to share our experiences. Women talking to each other is a powerful weapon.

Don’t exclude some women from feminism in the interests of inclusiveness. Imagine seeking support from other women, only to find that your husband or father had got there first?

When you allow our ex partners space in your feminism and give them platforms in your organisations and at your meetings, you exclude their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers from accessing these spaces and making use of resources that were set up to support women like them. Prioritise women over your desire to have a “get out of jail free” card to hold up against hostile accusations of bigotry" (continues)
makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/02/2020 22:06

Harrison seems to have a visceral response to being included in a generalisation that makes Harrison feel women might not share the same view that there is a difference between Harrison and others.

I can see why it would sting to realize that from a woman's perspective whether or not a male is dysphoric doesn't really matter all that much. That doesn't mean that women's perspectives are invalid, or that they should be subordinated to protect male feelings.

Again, think carefully about whether a male expecting you to do so is a useful ally.

TinselAngel · 23/02/2020 22:03

I thought Harrison et al were all about "Self ID will allow predators to access women's spaces.
But not us dysphorics though. We're ok".

Harrison seems to have a visceral response to being included in a generalisation that makes Harrison feel women might not share the same view that there is a difference between Harrison and others.

Imagine being a trans widow whose husband is so ingratiated in the feminist movement that favours can be called in and cartoons denounced and withdrawn virtually over night.

TheBewildernessisWeetabix · 23/02/2020 21:58

I'm not sure this is always the case.

If a drag artist claimed he was celebrating women

I am suggesting that once you understand the intent of the artist there is no longer a misunderstanding.
There is a disagreement.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2020 21:30

think the reaction is an indication that Harrison doesn't understand women's perspectives and never will. Which those working with Harrison should keep in mind - you can work together in the short term, but your perspective and goals are not the same, and the person you are working with has goals of their own in mind (having an exception carved out for the "right" sort of transwoman, who will then retain the right to access any women's space).

As others have said it's clearly a kneejerk response and Harrison wouldn't be the first person to think that their immediate emotional response should be the basis for both law and media or corporate policy, but as to whether it's a reasonable response? No, it is not.

Spot on. It's not the first time Harrison has shown this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2020 21:28

We have to stop allowing women and girls to be bottom of the pile of priorities.

We can put women and girls first.

We don't have to prioritise everyone else first.

Absolutely this.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/02/2020 21:15

The pressure came from 'GC' trans rights activists & their allies within the Socialist/Labour movement

Indeed. Which is why I keep saying that some should maybe think a bit more carefully about who they form alliances with, and keep the lack of shared goals in mind.

R0wantrees · 23/02/2020 21:12

We have to stop allowing women and girls to be bottom of the pile of priorities.

We can put women and girls first.

We don't have to prioritise everyone else first.

Absolutely this ^^

There are many threads running which show how influential policy makers & shapers whether MPs, trans rights activists or those managing important spaces for women & girls don't understand the context or principles of Safeguarding risk assessments. Karen Ingala Smith does.

As wellbehavedwomen has just posted on a current thread Sun 23-Feb-20 17:46:30:

"The problem is, people will nod and smile and agree that it's a concern, and then we'll get stuff like Jess "Back Office" Phillips's recent insisting, from her enormous and simply spiffing experience "running" (working as a business development manager for) a Women's Aid, that risk assessing is really easy and totally reliable and "years of experience" mean that staff can consult their infallible crystal balls in knowing how dangerous someone is. Just like the Parole Board did when planning to release John Warboys, for example, or the prison service when shoving the predatory paedophile and rapist male "Karen" White in with women.

Karen Ingala Smith says the safeguarding assessments argument is the most mendacious bullshit, but hey. Ignore women in favour of convenient hand-waving, right?

And her expertise and authority on this subject is why Mumsnet have her Femicide Census as a pinned post, right now. She's a huge figure in the women's aid movement. Why are people listening to lobby groups, instead of a senior service provider in the sector concerned?!

I'm quoting her at length - sorry for that, but I think her words are so important I really think they should be shared as often and as widely as possible. And people often don't read links."
kareningalasmith.com/2020/01/20/the-importance-of-women-only-spaces-and-services-for-women-and-girls-whove-been-subjected-to-mens-violence/

Some say that ‘we’ – those of us working is specialist women’s services – can use risk assessments to assess whether a male who says he is trans poses a risk to women. Let’s look at this in relation to women’s refuges:

When a risk assessment is completed with a woman looking to move in to a refuge, time is usually critical. You need to help her to get to a place of safety and quickly. She’s either already left her home or is planning to do so urgently because she is in danger. Maybe she’s called and needs to get out whilst her partner is due to be out of the house for a few hours. You’re also looking at whether the location of the refuge offers safety and can meet the woman’s needs and those of her children if she has them, and whether she herself might pose a risk to others living in the refuge. With risk assessment, you’re assessing the risk she is facing from her partner and planning how you can help her to reduce the often intensified risks associated with actually leaving an abusive man. The Femicide Census, a project I co-founded, told us that a third of women who are killed by a partner/ex-partner, are killed after they have left him. Of these about a third are killed within the first month and two-thirds within the first year. Leaving an abusive man is dangerous and difficult. Risk assessment with safety planning can help save lives. Risk assessment is not about assessing whether or not a woman is, in reality, a violent male.

If you expect refuges to accommodate males who identify as trans, you’re asking staff in already under-resourced women’s refuges (Scottish Women’s Aid report that cuts to Scottish refuges have increased from 14% to 41% between 2009 and 2016. Their annual survey reported that 30% of survivors who sought refuge in Scotland had to be turned away), you’re asking staff in already under-resourced women’s refuges, to differentiate between:

Transgender people born male who have genuinely experienced men’s violence and have managed to unpick their male socialisation and who will not use their sense of male entitlement or sexism or misogyny to harm, reduce and control women in the refuge and those transgender people born male who have genuinely experienced violence but are still dripping in male privilege and advantage and who hate or resent women; and those transgender people born male who are narcissistic perpetrators who have managed to convince themselves (and others) that they are victims , and those transgender people born male who are seeking validation, which some, if they were self-aware and able to be honest, would recognise as a need that can never be satisfied, and who might prioritise their validation above the needs of women, and those transgender people born male who are autogynophiles (that’s a male who is sexually aroused by the thought of himself as a female) or other fetishists, and, finally other men who are pretending to be trans in order to track down a particular woman or predatory men trying to access women in general. And we do know that violent and abusive men lie and manipulate. Violent and abusive men stand up in court, swear to tell the truth and lie and manipulate. No one’s yet explained to me how risk assessment is supposed to screen out most of those men – let alone convinced me of the wisdom of trying to make a bedroom for a fox in a henhouse. Risk assessment is about identifying risks posed by violent men and mitigating against them, not chucking in a few extra because you can.

But …. let’s set that small matter aside. Let’s imagine for a moment that you could, as some claim, risk assess trans-identified males for their suitability and safety to inhabit your space or attend your service, which of course is now no-longer women-only. What you’re ignoring if you do this is the impact of men’s presence on women who’ve been subjected to men’s violence.

It’s not unusual for women who’ve been subjected to men’s violence to develop a trauma response. These sometimes develop after a single incident of violence, especially with sexual violence, but also sometimes after years or months of living in fear, walking on egg-shells, recognising that tone of voice, that look in the eyes, that sigh, that pause, that silence, that change in his breathing. Some women have lived this, with a succession of perpetrators starting from their dad, all their lives.

A trauma informed approach is based on understanding the physical, social, and emotional impact of trauma caused by experiencing sexual and domestic violence and abuse. A trauma-informed service understands the importance of creating an environment – physical and relational – that feels safe to victims-survivors in all the ways I’ve just mentioned. A trauma-informed safe space creates space for action and recovery from violence and abuse and places the woman victim-survivor in control and in the centre. For many women this absolutely means excluding men from that space, including those who don’t identify as men.

Women are gas-lighted (manipulated to question their own judgement or even sanity) by their abusive male partners all the time. It is a cornerstone of coercive control. As a service provider you are in a position of power, no matter how you try to balance this out, and of course we do as much as possible to balance this out, but ultimately it is inescapable. You are not offering a trauma informed environment if you, in your position of power, gaslight traumatised women and pretend that someone that you both really know is a man, is actually a woman. It is furthering the abuse to then expect women to share what you say is women-only space with males who say that they are women, because you and they know are not. Part of your role is to help women to learn to trust themselves again, not replace the batshit that their abuser has filled their head with, with a new version. All this is on top of what I looked at earlier, that statistically women are safer in women only environments – because men commit violence at significantly higher rates.

It isn’t just women experiencing serious and debilitating trauma who benefit from women-only spaces and services. Women tell us that they want and value women-only space for safety, empathy, trust, comfort, a focus on women’s needs, the expertise of female staff often themselves survivors. They tell us they feel more confident and find them less intimidating. Women-only spaces offer not only a space away from the specific man that women are escaping or who has violated them but away from men in general; away from men’s control and demands for attention; away from men taking physical and mental space; away from the male gaze and men’s constant appraisal of women; away from men’s expectations to be cared for and, just as importantly, a space where women share in common experiences of abuse despite how these differ and despite all the other differences between us. A space with others who understand, to whom you don’t have to explain why you didn’t leave earlier and who know how easy it is to feel guilty or stupid because you didn’t.

We know that at least 80% of males who hold a gender recognition certificate retain their penis, but anyway, we don’t need to know what’s in their pants to know they are a man. Women experiencing trauma after violence and abuse will, like most of us – almost always instantly read someone who might be the most kind and gentle trans identified male in the world – as male; and they may experience debilitating terror immediately and involuntarily, they will modify their behaviour, their actions and expectations in countless ways, many that they are not consciously aware off. They need and deserve a break, don’t they?

Since I’ve spoken out to defend women-only services, I’ve lost count of the number of victim-survivors of men’s violence who have told me how important a women only service was to them. They’re often upset and emotional when they start to talk about this.

That any woman working in, but most of all those in leadership positions which are connected to women’s welfare, are prepared to sit on the fence about the importance of women-only spaces for victim survivors of men’s violence, and whether men can magically become women, makes me want to both rage – and weep. You cannot opt of this. You cannot sit back. You cannot, especially if you are happy to accept the salary and other perks of a leadership position claim to ‘have an opinion on this’ but in the next breath say it ‘isn’t safe for me to speak out’. None of women’s political gains were achieved by well-paid women who played safe and put themselves first rather than women as a class. How dare any woman take a leadership position and leave it to others, many of them victim-survivors, to do this? How dare they claim to care about women’s safety and look away, pretending that there is nothing to see here? Please don’t look away.

This not about hate. It’s not about bigotry. It is not anti-trans. It’s about women and children who have been subjected to men’s violence. Can we please just sometimes – sometime like now – put them first?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3830539-Liz-Truss-in-Daily-Mail-legitimate-concerns-predators-may-abuse-self-ID?watched=1&msgid=94173542#94173542

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 23/02/2020 21:10

How would she do that? The wig-and-lipstick scenario would have been the wrong side of the line I agree - that would have clearly been referencing transwomen.

Crossdressers with no desire to transition are a thing. Do we think they should be allowed into women's spaces? What about drag queens? Goth blokes in heavy makeup and utilikilts?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 23/02/2020 21:08

Exactly that, OldCrone, exactly that.

OldCrone · 23/02/2020 21:07

Can someone explain to me why some transwomen think this is directed at them, when it is clearly showing a predatory crocodile (male) trying to gain access to a safe space for newts (females). If they don't identify as predatory, why do they think it's aimed at them?

If they are decent transwomen who would never try to enter a female-only space, let alone try to convince the women and girls in there that they were just like them, why do they think this has anything to do with them?

Cascade220 · 23/02/2020 21:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FloralBunting · 23/02/2020 21:02

Groggy, FWIW, I hear you. I think there is far too much of it about, and I think it will ultimately be the undoing of the 'GC movement' as a broad thing, but that was always going to happen.

Personally, I am content that some people will go one way, probably based on shared politics, and keep the males in the central roles because they never really got it in the first place, while a significant group of women will remain firm that the women's liberation at stake will only be diluted by giving approved males what they demand and will continue to stand for the liberation of women, even if it's not very naice and acceptable to whatever elite group think it has authority this week.

I'm sure you can probably guess which way I'll go.

Goosefoot · 23/02/2020 20:59

Those who don't mean to offend apologise and stop using it. Those who do mean to offend argue the toss and carry on.

Offence isn't always relevant.

Terf is, at least now, a slur. So yes, if someone uses it not realising it, they are likely to stop when they do, and if they intend to use it as a slur, they will continue.

A political cartoon, an article, an explanation of a point of view - these are not put out there with the express purpose of offending someone, they are meant to communicate a perspective or argument. Something that the speaker or writer believes to be true.

You can be sorry someone is offended by such a statement and quite prepared to keep making it, because you think it's important, because you think the person who seems to be offended hasn't really understood, or is not being unreasonable.

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