Cartoon in the Morning Star

I'llk admit to being bemused by KH's complaint. I thought it was very clearly about the danger of a self-ID policy, allowing any predtor to enter with out any checks or restrictions.

I didn't think it was about transwomen or transsexuals at all, just the logical conclusion of Self ID.

I love how the little conversation we had about heterosexual males earlier went whoosh right over our new friend's head. The assumption that all transwomen are attracted exclusively to men seems to be common in people who know very little about the issues we're discussing but are keen to splain them to us anyway.

Funny, that.
On the other hand, the idea of male lesbians with ladydicks is so ridiculous and offensive that a lot of people just can't comprehend it.
Cotton ceiling. Google it, people.

Well, this angry poster is off to take the dog to a dog park. Maybe I'll run off all my aggression!!

Angry posts, Curious, much too angry for anyone delicate to read. Gently laughing at how silly people are being is very hostile and scary when the people doing it have vaginas.

I'm still waiting for one of them to come back and at least say they have read the posts we took time to type for them!

So very few seem to do that these days. I know how valuable it can be, to swallow your pride and have a re-think!

I love how the little conversation we had about heterosexual males earlier went whoosh right over our new friend's head. The assumption that all transwomen are attracted exclusively to men seems to be common in people who know very little about the issues we're discussing but are keen to splain them to us anyway.

The overwhelming violence against women is by heterosexual men.

Adult human males?

Yes its true
Adult human males are overwhelmingly responsible for violence against women, children & other males.
The majority of adult human males are heterosexual.
Males who identify as women/girls have the same offending patterns as males not females
(one always has to say #NAMALT of course. Not all males are like that)

I watched the unsolicited transing done to Famous Person Who I Won't Name a few years back and he was utterly bemused. And too polite to actually say "have you been huffing glue?", but the sentiment came across nonetheless.

Yes!! Our tranny mate has been Transed. He thinks it's funny. But he has always been open about it being his fetish.

We have a rather gorgoeous young male goth here, not remotely effeminate or gay. He too has been transed. He's not so amused, feels it is an affront to his manhood. His indignation does make me laugh (he's a friend/fellow networker) but at least he is listening to the GC discourse... he doesn't claim to be a feminist or ally or anything other than Goth!

I don’t feel my rights as woman are threatened by giving trans gendered women rights

Aaaand in things no-one is arguing about....

Transwomen have rights. The same rights as the rest of us. Trans rights are human rights. We all have human rights.

But this isn't about the right for transwomen to be treated equally in society. Transwomen are arguing for the right to be treated as if they are women, in all situations. All the time. Acceptance without exception.

Perhaps you really mean that you don't feel that your rights are affected by giving transwomen womens rights? If not, then I'm not sure who you are arguing against, because nobody here thinks that trans people are undeserving of human rights. We just believe that sex matters.

It's the difference between "it's fine for a man to wear a dress or a skirt" and "wanting to wear a dress or a skirt means you're a woman and should have access to all spaces designated for the use of women only". The former is progressive, the latter is regressive.

It always amuses me how many hardcore genderists are completely unable to wrap their heads around the concept of genuinely GNC people. They just can't process it as anything other than "this person has to be trans because no man/woman would want to do that/look like that/have those interests". Meanwhile most of the evil TERF witches grew up with people like that, or were/are people like that, and have been happily not blinking an eye at men in skirts and makeup and women who want to wear overalls and work on cars since childhood.

I've seen it in multiple fandoms I'm peripherally involved with, young genderist people attempting to impose a trans identity on people, particularly male people, who're just, you know, goths, or flamboyant gay men, or performers, despite those people themselves having given not the slightest indication that they see themselves that way. It's one of those "when all you have is a hammer everything you see is a nail" things.

I repeat - using relatively isolated incidents

ChrisCam
You are missing the point. Whether this is deliberate because you are incapable of engaging with the argument or whether it's because you are genuinely incapable of comprehending the central problem? I don't know. But let me make it crystal clear so there is no misunderstanding. Self ID allows any male to identify as a woman and gain access to sex segregated spaces. The problem with that scenario should not require laborious explanation. It is blatantly obvious.

I repeat - using relatively isolated incidents to generalise about all transgendered people is wrong . And we will all repeat 2 things:

Such incidents are NOT relatively isolated, even if you only look at the UK!

How many women being hurt will be enough to make you re-think that?

And when you have pondered that second point ask yourself why you are OK with any woman being raped, beaten etc?

The overwhelming violence against women is by heterosexual men. Using a rare example to demonise all transgendered women is appalling

You miss the point quite spectacularly. And the examples are no longer isolated - they grow by the week as more men feel emboldened to identify as women. This is not about that lovely sweet individual you personally know...it is about the general principle.

If you are really concerned about safety and dignity for all.....why not campaign for 'third spaces and categories'; why must women being gaslighted and abused for their feelings of discomfort in their own spaces and sports?

*I repeat - using relatively isolated incidents to generalise about all transgendered people is wrong . Men don’t need to dress up or go in disguise or even more extreme go through Sex transition to Assault or rape women. Yes there should be a review of where trans gendered people are put in prisons for everyone’s safety8

There are now many hundreds of examples of violent male/trans-women offenders; paeodophiles and rapists - and that's just in Britain over the last couple of years. The only way to protect women and girls - especially in a situation of gender self ID is to reinforce single sex spaces, services and sports.

I think it represents how many women feel about safe spaces - that they are vulnerable to predators if opened up to men who simply have to say they identify as a woman to access them. It is about the point rather than any individual. The crocodile and newts are just representational of women's feelings and worries. Women are not newts. Trans women are not crocodiles. Newts and crocodiles don't speak our language. Isn't this how cartoons often work?

Apologies for the random capitals -poor typing skills I’m afraid. Been reading through this thread and many seem very angry and aggressive. I don’t feel my rights as woman are threatened by giving trans gendered women rights

If people are feeling angry it is because of years of abuse; of suppression; of having venues cancel at last minute; activists banging on windows and screamin;, people being reported to police for hate crimes; your own natural political party naming women's groups as 'hate groups' and so on.......

Trans people have the same rights as everyone else....what they are seeking is additional rights, and more to the point the right to colonise women's spaces and re-configure the language women are permitted to use to describe and discuss themselves and their issues.

If you were a young woman having to compete, and lose out to, male bodied people in your own female category, as another example, you may well feel otherwise. It is not just about toilets......the agenda is extensive and wide ranging and really quite profound.

Neither do I Well, there we are, al saved!

About 2 years ago, like many others here, I would have agreed with you! I grew up in the Gender Bending 80s and have a healthy 'live and let live' attitude to the life choices of others. Having trans freinds helps - transman who I supported through full surgery and is now married to my ex boss (natal female) and a tranny mate who has been cross dressing since those heady 80s, he has gone out in dresses since he was about 14 (apologies for the virtue signalling, but I want to make sure posters understand my lack of 'fear').

BUT that isn't what TRAs are fighting for. They don't want to be 'allowed' to be trans. They want Trans to be legally insignificant, null and void, unless it aids them. They want TO BE WOMEN, more they want to be women with additional protection BECAUSE THAY ARE TRANS. Think that through - transwomen actually are women, say otherwise and you will be charged with a hate crime, but need more rights because they are also trans... as there is no legal hate crime for misogyny!

So... what you don't feel is thretened is the right of every woman working in the beauty industry to say no, they don't have the training, skills or inclination to wax male genitalia!

The right of female prisoners not to have a man sharing a cell with them - many transwomen are in prison for sex based crimes against women... real stats everywhere here on FWR, taken directly from the ONS, FOI requests etc.

The right of a woman beaten or raped by a transwoman to call her attacker him in any court case. Forced to lie by the presiding judge, and then penalised when they couldn't keep the lie straight!

The right of a woman who is in a crisis centre not to have to live with or be counselled by a man. That is a woman newly traumatised by a man, raw, scared and vulnerable... cannot say no to a man who might want to be their rape counsellor... or fellow resident.

The right of an older woman, incontinent, vulnerable, to say no to male care assistant. To be shouted at and sanctioned for 'misgendering' their assigned CPA.

The right of a owman to asy no to a male nurse taking smear swabs and being threatened with legal action and sanctions from the surgery for recognising the woman assigned to them was actually male.

The right of women to be women, with no further clarification, additional labels such as natal, cis, real etc. Transwomen want it to be illegal to ask them if they are real women, to see a GRA, but it seems OK for them to add clarification to women, to be sure we are not women but are cis etc. And so women become a subset of women! We are Not Trans women!

The right to defend all sex based rights from the linguistic torture, as in the above paragraph. Gender is being used to undermine the EA2010 in EVERY SINGLE GOVERNMENT ORGANISATION - check your local school, NHS etc, see what they say! Sex or gender? If gender then women have absolutely no right to any single sex provision of anything! For any reason, anywhere, anywhen... think that through!

And don't 'whatabout' me. Every point I made has already happened, mutiple times. In each instance a woman has been hurt, physically, mentall and financially... is that acceptable to you? If so how many women being hurt is acceptable to you?

Do you have an upper limit? Or had you not thought it through?

Two years ago I read a similar post to this and I shouted back at the poster! That poster took the time to reasona with me, to not shout back but to ask me questions and ask that I consider them! That poster has been banned from MN for some time now... as have others... specifically for continuing to point out that transwomen are men and that biology is irrefutable and that women have abslutely no need to budge up and relinquish anything simply because a man asks!

I would urge you to do the same. Read, think about the questions posed and give the tpic some further, open thought!

Indeed. In fact I eagerly await news of the letters those women have sent to Karen White saying "you can share a cell with me any time". Put your money where your mouth is and all, eh?

Women have the right to legally exclude the opposite sex from anywhere they may be vulnerable or undressed.
They also have the right to tell the truth without dear of legal punishment.

Those are actual rights.

Is anyone threatening to remove those rights currently?
Yes. Yes they are.

This toxic TRA movement is nothing more than a lobby group determined to threaten women's rights to say no.

Plenty of women are happy to sacrifice their right to say no to nen, or accept punishment for it. The ones who 'aren't threatened' by the men who can force them into a shared changing room, an unwanted medical treatment from the opposite sex, or a dock in a criminal court.
Good for you, women who don't value the right to say no.

The rest of us are happy to wave you off to your third spaces with any and every man who fancies making you genuflect for him.

But we understand the value of preserving our right to say no to men. All men. We'll preserve it for all women, even you, even if you never use it.

Thing is, it doesn't really matter if a few women would be delighted to have random cocks turn up in their changing rooms, prison cells, etc. If they want to volunteer themselves they can do so, but they don't get to volunteer me.

Good for you, Willis. Be sure to let those who do feel threatened that they're being silly little women and give their heads a good wobble.

Your work here is done, it's over ladies, temporary blip in the system, back to work now.

I don’t feel my rights as woman are threatened by giving trans gendered women rights

Neither do I

Chriscam happy for you that you don't see a problem, I used to be like you. Trouble is once you realise the harm to women's rights you can't unsee it.

I was pointing out the difference in treatment between a TW 'ally' being offended and getting apologies. As a woman I wish I had that ability to get apologies for far more seriously offensive cartoons, but as I am a woman I don't have that magic power