Cartoon in the Morning Star

Given the way the crocodile is salivating, I think the newts are right to be concerned.

I think this presents the arguments quite well. The crocodile is a predator. Maybe there are some special vegetarian crocodiles out there but this cartoon illustrates the fear of the standard, garden variety crocodiles who are newt eaters!

I think the cartoon is fair comment concerning the risks of a policy of self-ID. It is about the potential for male predators to self-identify as women.

This. The problem transgender people who get upset at cartoons like this, is that they do see themselves as represented by the predator, they know they aren't a newt, they may not be predatory themselves but they know that the newts have no way of distinguishing the genuine trans newts from the predators.

^^ A lot of my post got deleted there and I don’t know why, hopefully it still makes sense, I can’t be bothered to type it out again

*transgressing, not transgressions

Cwenthryth
Why would people interpret the crocodile as representing ‘all trans people’ though?

If this drawing was of white people in a shop instead of newts in a pool, and a Muslim man in a balaclava, instead of a crocodile, with the caption “What’s the problem? I’m only trying to protect my face from the sunlight” would you defend it in the same way? Because it wouldn’t obviously apply to all muslim men so it couldn’t be classed as offensive, right?

Right, I'm a little confused. Are we expecting careful, caveated nuance from one frame cartoons now? Not really very likely is it? They're just old school memes, meant to make very blunt points.

This is nonsense, and I will not be performing any 'proof I'm not transphobic' rituals in relation to it. It's not the cleverest cartoon I've seen, and Sandy Draws Badly and the Gender Critical Witch do it much better, but it is a blunt illustration of the problem we have been discussing for a long time, and yes, that's not a comfortable thought for all those who have been transgressions boundaries even with no nefarious intent, but that's life.

Of course it’s offensive. It isn’t clear that it’s about a predatory man rather than a genuine trans woman. I can see how it’s upsetting to trans people

I don’t think it quite works to demonstrate the real life issue, because the alligator/crocodile is clearly predatory in this instance.

In reality, the predator looks just like any other male newt, or any male newt that’s identifying as a female newt. There’s no way of telling the difference.

If those advocating for mixed sex spaces could just tell us how we are supposed to tel the difference between nice gentle transwoman trying to live their lives, a dangerous transwoman like Katie Dolatowski who wants to sexually assault children in toilets, and dangerous male predator who sees this as an opportunity to gain access to women/children with their cameras, sexual assaulting and raping behaviour etc then we might be able to make a start (notwithstanding the privacy argument of course). At the moment, all three of those classes of male present the same, and the basis of the argument seems to be people should just “trust” them to be honest, and “rape will happen anyway”.

Male newts don’t attack female newts (as far as I’m aware, not an amphibian expert). The same can’t be said for humans.

I've seen genuine transphobia. From older men, towards a transwoman just walking down the street. It was unpleasant and hostile and intimidating, and my heart went out to the transwoman they targeted. I do think it exists, yep. I suspect the hugely exaggerated claims make us cynical about the honest ones.

I'm torn on this. As a woman, it's just a cartoon of a bloke trying to access women's spaces with ill intent, claiming to be trans. The focus is on the biology and the risk that biology poses to us, not the identification of the male. I don't know or care if any given males are trans or not, tbh, when a male wants in a single sex space. But I do see that a transwoman might be really upset because there are people who are truly transphobic, and assume all transwomen are predatory, and this would tend to reinforce that. There are a lot of misogynists in the world who hate gay men, and I can't see why they would be any more sympathetic to trans people.

We've always said that the extremists will mean increased hate towards transwomen because trans status will be adopted as a false flag by predators. But the answer to that is to respect women and butt the hell out of our spaces, frankly.

I'm not going to be anti Harrison. She's stood up and taken shit for women's rights, and she gave evidence in support of Maya Forstater. Maybe she does just want women to like her, but most altruism is founded in self image to some extent so she wouldn't be unique there. And both have taken social risks in standing for women, given they will alienate many trans and are, as this thread shows, hardly guaranteed support from us, either. Hayton has campaigned against men in women's prisons. Asking why splits hairs over what really matters: that they aren't allowed in. I'm not going to demand purity in allies. It's not like I'm a pure soul myself - who is? They're trying to help and that's what I care about.

I think the cartoon is fair comment concerning the risks of a policy of self-ID. It is about the potential for male predators to self-identify as women.

I'm trying to find sympathy for KH's point but it's difficult. The problem is that there have been so many stories about predatory men assuming trans identities to prey on vulnerable women, that I simply can't see the cartoon as inappropriate or wrong. It's an allegorical illustration of something that is actually happening all the time.

I find it hard to see the distinction between "we can't discuss this problem in cartoon form because it makes trans people look bad" and "we can't discuss this problem anywhere at any time because it makes trans people look bad."

I can't understand why someone would assume the alligator meant "all trans people" instead of meaning "actual obvious predators." All I can assume is that there have been difficult life experiences that make KH experience this in a personal way. And while I have sympathy with that, it's very difficult to respect any argument that we have to tiptoe around our words and language on the grounds that trans people have difficult life experiences. I've seen where that leads.

GroggyLegs
Predatory males are indeed gross, scary & slimy. Transpeople are not.

Transwomen are male. Some are predatory. It doesn’t help when people view transpeople as some sort of special sinless category of people. There is no evidence that the offending of transwomen is at lower levels and is more benign than that of other males.

In fact, because Stonewall insists sexually-motivated crossdressers are transwomen, it is possible that sexual offending is higher among this broad group of transwomen than among other males. Certainly cross dressing is a common paraphilia among sex offenders. This is one benefit of the current GRA (compared to self-ID). A diagnosis of gender dysphoria is required and sexually-motivated cross-dressing will preclude the diagnosis. (Unfortunately many are coached online about what to say to doctors, and they are certainly told not to mention the sexual aspects of their cross-dressing.)

I'n not sure I understand the offence. Surely all alligators who are also self-professed newt allies wouldn't dream of breaching newt boundaries? Surely they would condemn fellow alligators who think they can merely declare a 'transition' to newt and disrespect newt rights and safe spaces this way?

Why on earth would any such alligator ally be offended on their own behalf at such a cartoon?

Are trans people genuinely generalised/demonised as predators, so they mistake comments such as this as the same? I’ve never seen it - only strawman arguments and (what seem like) wilful misrepresentations - but then I’m not a trans person who may be targetted with genuine accusations

Honestly I think the problem.os more that they arent victimised. Least not as much as they claim. But the victim status is vital for the cause so where as people werent so fussed to start with well activists had to push and push and push til we all had enough and said no so they then had the victim.starting point.

As a contrast, both transwomen allies to women's rights "Fionne Orlander and Miranda Yardley are, I believe, attracted to men. So the old-style homosexual transsexuals. And tend not to take offence at this kind of cartoon, because they know it doesn't apply to them.

Kristina, along with Debbie Hayton, are taking the "side" of women, but only with the hope of being seen as the special transgender women, who belong in women's spaces, and so are campaigning alongside women's rights. It's harsh to say this, but I believe it to be the truth. DH admitted in an article recently that they were agp. This is a manifestation of some agp cases - wanting to be onside "with the women."

And I read that Kristine took a place on a women's football team - that is not ok.

I see it as the same as the fox in the henhouse tbh. And no, the croc doesn't represent "all trans people" - we know it doesn't. The croc represents the predator tricking it's way into a safe space by self ID - that's all.

Why would people interpret the crocodile as representing ‘all trans people’ though?

Because theres no middle ground and no reasoning with activists.

All teachers fir example are subject to Dbs checks. All of them accept this and know that policies and regulations aren't accusatory.its not personal.

And those who take offence and take it as some kind.if personal.attack are the very people who the checks and polices etc are designed to weed out.