Cartoon in the Morning Star

@charlestonchaplin
Would my analogy be clearer if the Muslim man carrying a bomb was identifying himself as a Christian?

It’s easy to be dismissive when it’s something you don’t agree with but I repeat: if people honestly can’t see why trans people would find that cartoon offensive, no matter where they stand personally on the issue, I think that’s absolutely ridiculous of them.

And like I said, I stand by the majority of the views expressed on this board. But being blind as to why trans people wouldn’t find that particular cartoon offensive is just naive and cherry-picking IMO. Not saying it shouldn’t have been drawn or published, because there are a lot of cartoons about politicians that are a whole lot worse that have been drawn and published, but I’m a little doubtful as to how this can be brushed over and tossed aside as a non-issue by people because it suits the side of the argument they are on.

If this drawing was of white people in a shop instead of newts in a pool, and a Muslim man in a balaclava, instead of a crocodile, with the caption “What’s the problem? I’m only trying to protect my face from the sunlight” would you defend it in the same way? Because it wouldn’t obviously apply to all muslim men so it couldn’t be classed as offensive, right?

Uncomfortable as it is, I do somewhat agree with this point. Some minorities seem more protected thsn others.

It reminds me of a discussion ages ago where posters were dismissing claims of misandry and somebody pointed out that the same comments would be deemed unacceptable if one were to substitute the word 'black people' for 'men' - e.g. 'I'm starting to hate black people' / 'why are black people so violent?'

Oops, should've read the above posts before commenting....

Surely the crocodile isn't intended to portray a trans person so much as a predator using self-ID as a trojan horse?

I don't know how it could be any clearer tbh. There is no reason to read the crocodile as representing all trans women, or indeedanytrans women

In your opinion there is no reason to interpret it that way. You seem to be struggling with the concept that someone might have a different opinion or a different interpretation of it.

The points made by Britney seem to me entirely valid- but carry on with your wide-eyed innocence.

Transgender advocates claim it is directed not at predators, but at them Well I am very far from being a transgender activist. That is exactly how I read it. I don't think it does your (general your) gender critical stance any favours that you are simply dismissing out of hand that it can be read that way.

Britney I don’t really get your comparison of the scenario you have outlined and the cartoon posted in the OP. Maybe my brain is working a little slow. Perhaps because the crocodile mentions transition you have come to the conclusion that the crocodile is a transwoman. But even on this thread people are saying they aren’t worried about transwomen, who are apparently all saints, but about males pretending to be transwomen to access vulnerable females. It is clear that the opposition to self-ID is about all males, however they identify.

Your scenario has identified a Muslim man. There is no ambiguity about his identity. To be a proper analogy to this cartoon I think there would have to be some ambiguity about the identity of the man carrying the bomb/alarm clock.

This happens nearly every time Feminists talk about the predators that will march through the giant loopholes in the laws.
Transgender advocates claim it is directed not at predators, but at them. I do not think anyone has ever succeeded at convincing them that they are not the main character, or protagonist, in the story of everyone's lives.

allmywhat

I don't know what point you are making.

I don't know how it could be any clearer tbh. There is no reason to read the crocodile as representing all trans women, or indeed any trans women. There are plenty of male predators who aren't trans in any sense other than the self-ID sense, trying to get into spaces where women are vulnerable.

But I'm repeating myself and I'm pretty sure you are too, what's the point?

allmywhat
yes but not everyone who self identifies into a newt pond will be a crocodile

I don't know what point you are making.

Dropping the crocodile metaphor, I think it is entirely possible to view that cartoon as saying that all trans women will be a threat. I'm not a trans woman and that is how I read it.

Comprehension fail Sildarin. Firstly, many women here have husbands, partners, fathers, brothers and sons they respect and care about deeply but that doesn’t mean they want to share toilets, changing rooms or a prison cell with males.

Secondly, when a male (who may or may not present in a feminine fashion) enters a woman’s space like a toilet block, how are the women meant to know whether they are a decent sort or a predatory sort? We can’t tell, and if a predatory sort attacks we are at a great disadvantage when it comes to protecting ourselves due to lower physical strength.

Thirdly, there are quite a lot of cases reported in the media of self-identified transwomen sexually assaulting, raping and being violent towards women. Transwomen are marginalised in some respects, yes, but they are not at risk from women and unfortunately some are a risk to women. Not because they are transwomen but because they are male.

We need a good reason to change the status quo which has worked well for aeons and puts the lowest number of women at risk. There are ways of protecting transwomen which don’t put women at risk. Anyway, I’m not saying anything new so I’ll stop here.

yes but not everyone who self identifies into a newt pond will be a crocodile.

Reality isn't a concept we struggle with here.

the juxtaposition!

any man becoming or transitioning to being a woman isnt real

Reality isn't a concept we struggle with here.

I think it is entirely possible to view that cartoon as saying that all crocodiles will be a threat. I'm not a crocodile and that is how I read it.

yes but not everyone who self identifies into a newt pond will be a crocodile.

If this cartoon was of a Muslim male in a shop carrying what looked like a bomb in a carrier bag with a caption “it’s just my alarm clock, no need to be worried, folks!”

This cartoon is of a crocodile, not of a transwoman. Your analogy is begging the question, if that is a thing that analogies can do. The comparison is false.

Any crocodile who looks at that cartoon and thinks the crocodile represents them definitely shouldn't be in any newt's spaces. Decent crocodiles would totally understand why newts don't want any crocodiles in their ponds

I think it is entirely possible to view that cartoon as saying that all crocodiles will be a threat. I'm not a crocodile and that is how I read it.

@Sildarin
any man becoming or transitioning to being a woman isnt real.

It’s not real, as humans can’t change sex.

@charlestonchaplin
The crocodile is a predatory male. That predatory male may or may not be a transwoman

If this cartoon was of a Muslim male in a shop carrying what looked like a bomb in a carrier bag with a caption “it’s just my alarm clock, no need to be worried, folks!” would you think Muslims objecting to it would be justified in doing so or not?

And again, with the disingenuous thing I brought up earlier, why say “oh, it could be but it also could equally not mean X” when the cartoon was clearly drawn to mean X.

This cartoon seems to assume that all men are violent and that any man becoming or transitioning to being a woman isnt real. The reality is that trans people are marginalised and picked on. I dont understand why I, as a woman am supposed to feel threatened by some of the most oppressed people in any society. Trans people experience horrendous levels of abuse and violence and I would be ashamed to be on the same side as people who think that they are the problem.

It's obviously a criticism of self id.

I have no idea if Harrison has a grc, or self id, but Harrison has a right to be offended by the cartoon. Others have a right to be critical of self id, TRA and the processes that make women only spaces difficult to maintain.

The crocodile is a predatory male. That predatory male may or may not be a transwoman.

I agree Dido.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the cartoon. Cartoons in this type are mainly horrible as I mentioned upthread and often painted in a grotesque way. I don’t like any of them personally, no matter whether they represent my political views or other views or not. But i think it’s pretty disingenuous to ponder “well, why would trans people be offended by this?”

I’m all for free speech and I say keep the cartoons coming. I don’t like them, but they’re not drawn for my personal approval, so whatever, I’ll just turn the page. But I do generally think they are nasty, I do (not in this drawing but in ones about specific people) find them grotesque and drawn to highlight people’s worst facial features and I do find them horribly cruel.

I think I’m generally on the same side of reason on others on this board but if people honestly can’t see why trans people would find that cartoon offensive, no matter where they stand personally on the issue, I think that’s absolutely ridiculous of them.

I interpreted it as an abusive man using Self ID to prey on women in their protected spaces. I didn't see it as an attack on trans identifying people at all

Britney

A lot of my post got deleted there and I don’t know why, hopefully it still makes sense, I can’t be bothered to type it out again

Yes it made sense. I agree there are anti- semitic or racist cartoons where clearly one person is intended to represent the whole of that group. Recently there was the mural of Jewish banking and financier families ( the one Corbyn thought was ok) which was clearly intended to refer to all Jewish people.

I think it is really not stretching the bounds of credibility to see this as saying all trans women are predatory.