More police victim blaming - advice on how to not get raped

even if it means accepting the reality that I can't always do the things I want to

1. Men don't face this to the extent that we do. You are endorsing a very structural sexism here: that women as a class should not do things that men as a class do with impunity, which limits women's opportunities as a class.
2. Just how much are you prepared to miss out on in order to avoid rape? A night out? A 5k evening run? A job? Husband and children?

50% of rapes are perpetrated by a current or former partner. My rape was at the hands of my then-bf. I was also sober and asleep. To make sure it's someone else next time prevent recurrence, I won't date nor marry. I have given up romance and marriage to avoid another rape. Should women have to give that up? How much should women have to give up? (Now waiting for the "hysterical man-hating feminazi" criticisms that usually follow when I outline my evidence-based plan to reduce my chance of a second rape by 50%, because heaven forbid that a woman make herself sexually unavailable to men.)

[paraphrasing the nonsense about alcohol]

2/3 of rape victims are sober at the time of the rape. I was eight and sober when sexually-assaulted. I was sober when raped.

100% of rapes are caused by a rapist. 100% of rapes are because a rapist chose to rape.

Make yourself clearly understood.

Well, obvs whilst fighting off your attacker/s you should stand with your feet firmly planted on the ground, grab a conveniently placed loudhailer and yell "Noooooo" into it....

I think the above applies to many other areas of life too - e.g. you see a really good deal online but have doubts about the seller. You're not the one at fault but caution may still be a good idea.

Another major issue with the above statement is that it massively plays into the myth that rape is a thing that only happens down dark alleys, to 'bad' women who drink.

But it sounds like that's exactly how it did happen in the above example - i.e. alcohol intoxication, not being a 'bad woman'.

There have been a lot of fairly high profile cases where drunk women have been taken advantage of in hotel rooms, sometimes waking up with little recollection of events. I've also been at a house party where the guys had to kick out a scumbag who kept trying to get into bed with a passed out girl.

I know my opinion is unpopular but there's a necessary differentation IMO between 'what's ethically right' and the reality of 'what's actually happening'. I'm not prepared to get beaten and raped to prove a point, even if it means accepting the reality that I can't always do the things I want to - e.g. jumping in the unlicensed cab to avoid waiting halfhour for a proper one.

I dunno. I was assaulted whilst pissed. Was it my fault? No. Would it have happened if I wasn't hammered? No. There are complete and utter scumbags out there. I can't control them but I can protect myself better. I realise this won't sit well with many of you

Another major issue with the above statement is that it massively plays into the myth that rape is a thing that only happens down dark alleys, to 'bad' women who drink, or go out without male chaperones, or 'risk' the shortcut down the back street. It promotes the idea that if only these women had made "better" choices, not gone for a drink, not taken that shortcut etc. then they wouldn't have been raped. It shifts the blame from the attacker to the victim! You just cannot ignore the fact that most rape doesn't take place in these circumstances and so the answer isn't to try and control women's behaviour and freedom.

I'm not sure educating the culprits is the key either. I think most are likely very aware of their actions and just don't care - also the view of one of the big rape crisis charities too I believe. I'd prefer to see tougher sentencing, which if course is difficult in light if how hard the burden of proof is in sexual assault cases.

I dunno. I was assaulted whilst pissed. Was it my fault? No. Would it have happened if I wasn't hammered? No. There are complete and utter scumbags out there. I can't control them but I can protect myself better. I realise this won't sit well with many of you.

This is pretty much what I was saying, but apparently wasn't appropriate as my comment was deleted. I'd also add though that my partner takes similar measures in avoiding groups of drunken men, e.g. crossing the road - being a big bloke who clearly lifts weights he seems to attract the attention of those that think he might be up for a scrap, rather than his size being a deterrent.

Also, if she hasn't actually said yes, or the clear definite equivalent, take that as a no too.

I reckon we could probably come up with our own flyer:

Fancy that girl?
Want to have sex with her?
Just remember no means no.
Her walking away from you means no.
Her pushing you off means no.
She's too drink to say no? Take that to mean no.
She's passed out? That's definitely a no.

I said no very clearly, several times. The way I made myself clear was with a hard smack to his jaw, which could have gone a lot worse for me in other circumstances. How exactly are women supposed to be clearer than saying no? The police should be educating men on the meaning of the word no, which many of them seem to not know the meaning of.

wellbevavedwomen, that Vancouver advert is interesting. I often wonder when advice aimed at potential victims comes out how a 'make sure you don't rape anyone' flyer would go down when handed out to the menfolk outside a nightclub.

And TeaAndWine, that's really good to hear, aiming for bystanders involvement sounds a great move.

@SuperSleepyBaby you give your own daughter advice that prioritises her; you give advice to keep her safe. You want to make sure that her risks of being the victim fall. The overall rates aren't your worry. And that's fine, as she's your girl.

The problem with the police giving that advice is that it does not reduce levels of rape at all, because there will always be a more vulnerable girl. All this advice does is make those victimised feel more self-blame. Juggling victims isn't going to reduce incidence. The police aim is meant to be victim reduction, not victim reorganisation.

Learning your limits around booze is part of growing up. Being raped should not be. Again, we need more education around consent, delivered via bystander intervention programmes (valuable in themselves, and make education around informed attitudes to consent more palatable to those you need to reach).

apparently the leaflets are being withdrawn

inews.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/police-force-rape-advice-angers-public-1887845

It is Belfast. I spend a lot of time there and many of its inhabitants, male and female, hold misogynistic and old fashioned views.

Like any other city then.

It is Belfast. I spend a lot of time there and many of its inhabitants, male and female, hold misogynistic and old fashioned views.

@JustForTheTasteOfIt

Make yourself clearly understood

Absolutely - if it is not a clear yes - then everything else is a no and = rape

Not the other way round.

Fucking idiots

What advice would you give your daughter or son if they were going out for the night?

If my daughter was attacked I would only hold the person who attacked her responsible - but to limit the ability of someone to attack her I would advise her to take certain steps.

When my husband goes out occasionally he sometimes has a little too much to drink and I worry about him being beaten up on the way home. I tell him not to drink too much so he stays in control and I phone him to make sure he gets into a taxi on the way home. If he was attacked, it wouldn’t be his fault, but I still want to do everything I can to avoid it happening to him.

In the Paris metro there are billboards that say 'what you see in porn is not the norm' and 'saying nothing means not consenting' (that's the best translation I can muster) - which was a breath of fresh air.

@TeaAndWine Thanks for the glimmer of hope.

Make yourself clearly understood.

As a victim this is honestly one of the most triggering things I've ever read. FFS.

Don't make yourself clearly understood if someone asks you why you feel unsafe sharing formerly safe spaces with penises though. Don't be clear then. Or you'll get in trouble. Good girls.

@TeaAndWine that's brilliant, and so good to hear (after the depressing start to the thread, especially!).

It just seems such a great way in, in terms of shifting ideas around consent, too. Because people get angry when asked to attend consent workshops. Bystander intervention ones - all about helping people avoid those nasty predators - is a lot easier to sell. And of course bystander intervention is important, too.

Just a win all ways round, and it's lovely to know your force do it.

The other thing the police could do, if really concerned, is bystander intervention training
I'm a police officer. Our force have run an operation doing this for about two years now, and it's been really good at deterring would be offenders who pray on vulnerable, lone, drunk girls. I loved being a part of it. Some of the male officers eyes were very opened after a few shifts on that I can tell you.
The wording of this ad is completely wrong. Ugh.

Were is the
Don't go out.
Don't date.
The list is not complete I am afraid.