Dawn Butler on R4 just now - mostly sensible with blasts of silly

wellbehavedwomen, yes Karen Ingala Smith is excellent on this, I don't know how anyone can glibly dismiss what she says.

@RedDogsBeg that's really nice of you, but actually Karen Ingala Smith did a better and more concise job of it, here. She breaks down male, female and transwomen victim and suspect homicide stats in the UK for the past decade. Wish I'd seen that before!

👏🏻 wellbehavedwomen

Hope you don't mind wellbehavedwomen if I copy and save your well constructed, factual rebuttal for posterity. Sadly, we are all wasting our breath on Katienlisa.

"Dawn Butler: So, obviously, trans people will define what transphobia is. You cannot be the voice of other people with those lived experiences."

Dawn Butler on transphobia and transition: "Only lived experience matters. Only trans people's voices matter. You can't speak for anyone without their lived experience."

Dawn Butler on misogyny and the definition of a woman: "any man who thinks he's a woman can speak for women, and is a woman. Lived experience is irrelevant."

She's not the sharpest tool in the kit, is she?

@Katienlisa Transrespect Versus Transphobia Worldwide produce the statistics for Trans Day Of Remembrance. I assume, therefore, that you accept their data and do not regard it as being biased.

They say that 9 trans people were killed in the UK between 2008 and 2017. So, averaging one a year. The trans community is conservatively estimated at 200,000 people. So the risk of being murdered for a trans person is around 1 in 200,000.

The total UK murder rate is a little over 1 murder to every 100,000 people. That means trans people have half the average murder risk.

Transrespect v Transphobia say that 28 American trans people were murdered in 2017/2018.

If the US trans population is 1.4 million, which is the presently accepted figure, that means 2 trans people are killed for every 100,000 trans people in the population.

The statistic across the whole population in the same year was 5.4 people killed for every 100,000 people. That would mean trans people in the US are more than twice as safe as the average.

If you read the Trans Day Of Remembrance lists - which I have done - you will realise the vast majority are sex workers in south and central America. Their deaths are hideous and appalling, as all murders are, but women sex workers in the region are also killed in horrifyingly large numbers and nobody's interested in remembering them.

Trans people face bigotry. I think that's obvious. But ignoring the reality of that (employment discrimination, difficulties obtaining shared housing spaces, street harassment, objectification) to create rather more dramatic, and very easily disproven narratives undermines that by undermining credibility, and misdirecting attention from where the problems truly lie. This helps nobody. Least of all the trans community. And nor does propagating a narrative that means trans people live in fear of attack and murder, when the reality is that their murder risk is greatly reduced.

It's similar to the ridiculously unscholarly and exaggerated suicide "stats", which GIDS at Tavistock, from their contact with thousands of young people with gender identity issues, state is not correct. They say that suicide is extraordinarily rare, and no more common than amongst any other cohort of young people the same age in contact with services. Yet people keep repeating a stat from a self-chosen survey, with no controls possible, far less probability weighting, where the designers of that study had no way even of knowing if those completing it did so more than once. A statistic taken from 26 young people in total cohort. Yet people keep citing that, and ignoring GIDS, with their ongoing relationships with many thousands of patients. GIDS have further stated that they deplore those highly questionable suicide stats being used as propaganda, as they harm the resilience and peace of mind of the very young people they are seeking to support. So why do people keep doing it? Especially when, as with suicide risk, there is a proven link between telling teenagers they're at increased risk of suicide, and their attempting it.

Dramatic false claims may harm the people you are claiming concern for. Again: fact checking matters.

(This post is a repost. There are only so many times you can be arsed to type the same facts in new ways.)

Dawn Butler speaking in Pink News.

"Dawn Butler: So, obviously, trans people will define what transphobia is. You cannot be the voice of other people with those lived experiences."

Well, I would reply to that -"women will define what misogyny is, human females that is, because you cannot be the voice of other people with those lived experiences".
Dawn quite often ties herself (hope I am not misgendering her) in knots.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/02/22/dawn-butler-labour-deputy-leadership-transgender-rights-gender-recognition-act/

Oh dear, what did I miss whilst writing my lengthy post? Those facts are just so inconvenient, and they always seem to lead to a proper full on tantrum when given.

Where as the statistics of trans suicide self harm and murders are staggering.

How about you post a peer-reviewed link for this claim, @Katienlisa.

In the interests of balance, of course.

Katienlisa The fact still remains the majority of sex offenders are straight males. Show me the evidence of the transgendered males being sex offenders and I might understand your argument.

The Ministry of Justice has confirmed Fair Play for Women's findings that HALF of all transgender identifying males in prison are sex offenders.

If someone is that sick they want to do that they will do it whether or not they are trans or a man who wants to put on a frock and define themselves as female

This shows your complete lack of knowledge of safeguarding and prevention of crime, to spout this nonsense is juvenile, bizarre and dangerous.

Where as the statistics of trans suicide self harm and murders are staggering.

The highest rates of suicide in the UK are for men under the age of 45 - are you saying that a huge proportion of these are transgendered males? If you are, please provide the concrete evidence to back up this claim. Furthermore, women are killed at an average rate of two per week, between 2008 and 2017 a total of NINE trans people were murdered in the UK by contrast a quick snapshot shows that out of the total UK murder rate of 650 for 2019, 132 of those murdered were men between the ages of 20-29.

Perhaps you should research and stick to actual facts before pontificating.

Was someone posting in bad faith? Well colour me gobsmacked...

Re-upload this, just in case you missed it

pet

WOOF!

Nice bit of merailing but getting back to the purpose of the thread, I fully agree with you, Bellini.

Here is a recent article by Douglas Murray that starts by talking about climate change protestors digging up the lawn in front of Trinity College but goes straight to Dawn Butler, her confusing stance on the issue, and the pretzel shapes people in the public eye are having to contort themselves into just to avoid eternal damnation by social media.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/02/18/society-thrall-mad-bad-orthodoxies-liberal-left/

Alternatively,

I care about how women feel and react in the presence of a male body. About The psychological reaction , instinctive, often a result of abuse

It's like this. If a transwoman wants to be in the female space because of how they feel, how then can females not say that how they feel is equally important ? Why is the transwomen feeling importan5 but the female feeling just bigotry?

Alternatively

Show me the evidence that self identifying transwomen commit sexual offences at a significantly lower rate than males

Some of the more prolithic and extreme sex offenders of the past have been priests and volunteer youth workers

White heterosexual male abusers will take on whatever persona will help them abuse

these are pretty prolific.

Come on then show me the cold hard proof that the trans community and anyone who self indentifies poses a danger to girls or women

You've been given the numbers of transwomen sexual offenders and given a website of data.

Here's the link for you again Katienlisa.

transcrimeuk.com/

Again show me the stats of trans men that attack or harm women.

Do you mean transmen or transwomen? Transmen are women who identify as men, transwomen are men who identify as women. There are plenty of males who identify as women who have attacked or harmed women (link already given by another poster). Transmen tend to be less violent because they're female.

So you’re saying girls/women should be chaperoned at all times? How very progressive of you.

MEN not me.