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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shaking after explaining why I couldn’t vote Lib Dem to a canvasser

93 replies

moggiemonster · 19/02/2020 11:06

Not entirely sure what advice I am after. I have been lurking on this board and commenting infrequently. Have local elections coming up (we are a very blue area) and Lib Dem male canvassers knocked. Politely told him I could not support the candidate and was asked why. Explained about changes to GRA, self-I’d and spousal ‘veto’. He was very polite, very incredulous that this was sole reaction I couldn’t support them even on a local level.

I was actually shaking as I spoke to him. Was so worried I would be seen as a bigot and was made to feel that actually self-id wasn’t a big deal. Probably felt vulnerable as was discussing on my doorstep. Would it have been better just to have shut the door?

How do I get my view across without being made to fell stupid and a bigot? I am all for accepting those who go through the process but not the idea of there being no distinction between the sexes so no boundaries.

Sorry, I feel very isolated with this topic, friends ignore it or tell me I should be accepting as there are no need for different categories based on sex. My family just think I am over-reacting.

Doubt I will see hide or hair of Labour canvassers.

OP posts:
notangelinajolie · 20/02/2020 10:19

I would say that you had watched the recent Labour leaders debate on TV and the 3 candidates were asked their views on men in women's prisons. Then throw it right back at them and ask what their views are?

ScapaFlo · 20/02/2020 09:57

wellbehavedwoman 👏👏👏

ThinEndoftheWedge · 20/02/2020 09:53

Personally I don't think this issue ought to be so important that it overrides everything else. I don't want the government to be given free ride to do enormous damage solely because people want to not have self-ID. But that's just my view.

The safety, privacy and dignity of my daughters is at stake. Everything else is secondary...

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 20/02/2020 07:42

@GaraMedouar "A good tactic I find is to show people pictures of sports people such as a nice pic of the cyclist Rachel McKinnon next to 2 female competitors"

Please feel free to use this pic I made which really shows the lie of it.

Shaking after explaining why I couldn’t vote Lib Dem to a canvasser
BuzzShitbagBobbly · 20/02/2020 07:40

what does is matter if people call you a bigot or a terf

It matters insofar as the minute people hear those words, they start ignoring what you say. Whereas if it is framed differently (take McKinnon and Sports for example) the reception is very different.

mcduffy · 20/02/2020 05:57

Great post, wellbehaved and well done for speaking up, OP. Not had any canvassers but I'd probably be bit trembly too, I find it so hard to be dispassionate. I work in an important industry for this issue and I'm getting quite vocal at work. My GC colleague helps remind me when to rein it in a bit and is way better at detaching and politically influencing on the subject. My DH's best mate is a SHL so if I get sacked I hope he's on my side Grin

HopelesslydevotedtoGu · 20/02/2020 01:49

"Personally I don't think this issue ought to be so important that it overrides everything else"

I was planning to vote LD in last GE despite their self-ID policy because I reasoned it was one of many issues, until I heard Jo Swinson say that she didn't want votes from those who didn't believe that trans women. Really I'm not going to vote for a party that doesn't want my vote, over a reasonable point of view I hold.

I think it's the parties who have let this one issue override everything else by not allowing any room for differences of opinion. Going forward I won't vote for any party that is so absolute on this issue.

unwashedanddazed · 20/02/2020 01:13

In the run up to the election my local MP brought Keir Starmer to my door and I raised the GRA/Labour trans problems with them. He mumbled something about it being popular with young people and looked like he couldn't get off my doorstep fast enough. Bloody fool.

My MP was more supportive and agreed the protest at the Women's Place Labour conference fringe event was a disgrace. I also made a complaint about the lunatic rantings of the constituency lgbt officer at the conference the following day.

Thanks to my MP I did feel heard, but I shook like a leaf while I said it and worried for the rest of the day that I might be regarded as a bigot. Makes me bloody furious how effective the cries of transphobia and stfu terf have been in closing down debate. But the time for niceness is long past.

wellbehavedwomen · 20/02/2020 00:48

Sorry, OP. Got a tad cross there!

You are brilliant. Thank you. Each chipping away counts.

wellbehavedwomen · 20/02/2020 00:40

@HPFA

Personally I don't think this issue ought to be so important that it overrides everything else. I don't want the government to be given free ride to do enormous damage solely because people want to not have self-ID. But that's just my view.

This is not just about self ID. Not even close.

This is the single most important issue to me. I will absolutely vote on it and make no apology for doing so. I've been Labour all my life, and would always vote on health, education, welfare state and environment in the past. I'd love to be able to do so now. But women have been pushed down the list in favour of "more important" issues since time immemorial - every right women possess only came about when women stopped accepting that dismissal, and pushed back - and I have had enough. We are 51% of the population. We are now being denied a voice at the fucking table over our own rights and demonised for daring to protest, and I have had enough of it. They are misogynists. I won't vote for misogynists. Why would I?!

The intention, clearly stated by all activists on the trans side of this, is to erase women as a sex class altogether. It will make it impossible to work together for our rights. Men, identifying as women, will speak across us, and for us, and mansplain womanhood to us, and be heard instead of us because they are men. It's already happening. Are you aware that the acknowledged aim is to completely redefine 'woman' so that there is no legally recognised sex-based difference at all? That both Labour and Lib Dems are committed to that? Rape Crisis centres and domestic abuse shelters will be compelled, by law, to employ and serve any male who defines as a woman? Sports the same? Statistics defined not by sex, but by gender? Equal pay, crime, impact of maternity, representation in senior roles, in politics, media? Women have already lost jobs simply for saying sex is real and has real consequences. And the courts held that those views - views that female oppression matters, and must therefore be identifiable - are not worthy of respect in a democratic society. Well, this is the thing about a democratic society: we can vote. And I'll vote for my mothers and sisters and daughters, every damn time.

We are being erased, while those denied access to our spaces and provision (because their male biology proves a huge statistical risk to us, however they define) claim our refusal to accept that erasure erases them. Our right to exist as a sex class was until this month not being debated at all, thanks to the decree of a small number of (terribly marginalised and powerless and vulnerable, you understand) males - we are having to argue that it be debated at all, while those stealing our rights squawk indignantly that it's wrongmeanbad to fucking include us even in a consultation?!

Politicians telling women that they are to allow even rapists into their spaces, on their say so (because rapists leave prisons, and start accessing changing rooms and youth hostel dorms...)? Good luck with that. I hope Opposition benches are comfortable. I'll vote for whichever party protects women's human rights. That simple. Women can sway any election, if they stand together in sufficient numbers. We're a majority. And every single survey shows that this is the majority view. Women are already being raped and sexually assaulted in prisons across the world because of this. And that was an intentional step, because trans activists strategised that prisons were the toughest sell with the least popular women, so if they quietly snuck that in, we couldn't argue effectively against anything else. They literally planned a strategy that put women at horrific risk, and didn't give one single shit, just as long as it aided males. And they say they are women?! This is indeed not a drill. Misogynists aren't going to take over with the assistance of my vote.

Thinkingabout1t · 19/02/2020 23:48

Well done, OP. «Speak the truth, even if your voice shakes.» That’s the best way of getting through to politicians - let them know they’ve lost your vote. The more of us who do that, the more they will realise what they are throwing away.

FloralBunting · 19/02/2020 23:13

It's been said for some time, by quite a few of us, that the main reason this has got so far, and in fact it's only power, is fear. Yes, there has been plenty of subterfuge, but the silence as scrutiny began was kept in place by making people, and especially women, scared. If they can keep you so scared you don't speak up even slightly, that is all they need to railroad everything through.

How many times has a male come on these threads and announced that no woman has challenged or questioned him, as proof that there is no problem with his actions? And yet every one of us knows that women will most often keep silent out of fear - silence is not automatically agreement.

So you were, my dear, bloody brilliant, and each time you speak up, the fear ebbs, and eventually you begin to see it was just a ridiculous trick designed to keep you compliant. And you shake it off entirely. xx

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 19/02/2020 22:37

I just said ‘people with penises shouldn’t be in women’s prisons’ to another MP, the second time in 2 days, this time in person!

TedsFederationRep · 19/02/2020 22:21

Personally I don't think this issue ought to be so important that it overrides everything else.

Personally, I don't think that the determination of something like 0.01% of the population to access same sex spaces by Self ID should override the safety and dignity of 51% of the population.

I too would like to see a functioning Opposition, a credible government-in-waiting that would challenge the government and hold its feed to the fire. Our democracy depends on it.

However, any party that is prepared to throw women and girls under the bus - see Lisa Nandy who is on record as being quite happy for vulnerable women in prison to be locked up in the same cell as rapists (as long as they self-ID, of course) - is never going to get my vote. Ever.

Strangerthantruth · 19/02/2020 21:55

I had a WEP committee member call me asking for money (I know, I know, but we have to assert our rights, we must not roll over) and I said, NO, you can't just farm members for cash when you won't listen to us, we are sick of it!

testing987654321 · 19/02/2020 21:49

Well done OP! It's really hard to talk calmly about the things we feel most passionately about.

It's emotionally draining to keep having to go over these arguments, but each time we speak up it helps get people thinking critically.

HPFA · 19/02/2020 21:48

I've done canvassing myself - I prefer it if people are polite but other than that they have a right just to say "No thank you" or to give you a reason if they prefer.

Personally I don't think this issue ought to be so important that it overrides everything else. I don't want the government to be given free ride to do enormous damage solely because people want to not have self-ID. But that's just my view.

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 19/02/2020 21:39

Well done OP. I also had a Lib Dem canvasser phone me recently and spent a while talking to him about their policies on prostitution and trans issues, and why I was unable to keep supporting them at the moment. Poor guy was new to it all and sounded rather taken aback (said he wasn't really aware of those policies), but seemed to agree with a lot of the points I made, was surprised at the policies and said he would do some more research on the issues. He sounded like an older guy and said it was his first time canvassing so it hadn't come up before; but he finished by saying thanks for the info and he would give them some feedback on my concerns. So hopefully I opened his eyes a bit, if nothing else.

moggiemonster · 19/02/2020 20:35

Have located the pdf leaflets on Fair Play For Women, thanks for that suggestion. Shall get some printed out.

I have appreciated all the positives comments and it has made me think that it is a ridiculous situation to be fearful for speaking up on the right to be treated with dignity and respect and not to be pushed aside.

Almost want another canvasser to knock on the door. 🙂

OP posts:
Evenquieterlife33 · 19/02/2020 20:35

Bring *it on.

Evenquieterlife33 · 19/02/2020 20:35

I’ve had zero canvassers the last few years. I’m actually now looking forward to the next lot. Bring me on, they need this door step feedback- good on your for sticking to your guns.

Evenquieterlife33 · 19/02/2020 20:34

It was my local Lib Dem Facebook Page that brought all this to my attention. They are a shamefully woke group of jokers.

TedsFederationRep · 19/02/2020 20:08

Being nice and kind hasn't worked. In fact, it's allowed things to get much much worse for women and girls so well done, OP, for speaking up.

I did the same with the one and only canvasser on my doorstep in the general election. He was surprisingly well informed and totally GC, but he was a Tory, not LibDem. However, I would have no hesitation now in raising it quite vociferously with any canvasser who calls.

I am so over being nice and kind.

SisterWendyBuckett · 19/02/2020 19:54

Well done OP, and thank you. It does take courage but becomes easier the more you do it. And it's great when you do get a canvasser who actually agrees with our concerns.

Strangerthantruth · 19/02/2020 19:44

Wring! Wrong obvs.