As of 5pm Dawn Butler says trans women ‘should never be put in women’s jails’

I've just realised i knew Dawn Butler's family growing up. They ran a local bakery right near my school - and iirc her little brother was at the school with me too. Of course, i can't be sure he was actually a brother - he may have been too young to have been assigned a sex

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3826996-Moral-Maze-Radio-4-8pm-19-Feb-Transgender-Rights

Wow.

Should be interesting!

R4 The Moral Maze tonight :

"Two of the final three Labour leadership candidates have signed pledges to defend trans rights, expel party members who express "transphobic" views and fight against Woman’s Place UK, LGB Alliance and “other trans-exclusionist hate groups”. Both those groups cited insist they are merely campaigning for the rights of women as they exist under UK Equality law, as well as those of gay, lesbian and bisexual people. This bitter quarrel could be seen as symptomatic of a wider culture war which calls into question the very notions of gender, sex, sexuality, social justice and inclusivity. For many trans activists, a failure to recognise trans women as women or trans men as men is itself hateful, because they believe it denies the most fundamental fact of their identity. Their critics, however, accuse them of denying a biological reality that sex is determined at birth. It is, they say, unreasonable to refuse even to discuss the subject. For those prepared to debate, there’s a lot to think about. What constitutes “transphobia”? What are the moral implications of gender self-identification? What rights and protections should be afforded to ‘biological’ females in women's changing rooms, refuges and prisons? What does gender self-identification mean for women’s sport? More fundamentally, where does ‘masculinity’ end and ‘femininity’ begin?

How should we respond to the increasing numbers of children and teenagers, particularly girls, being diagnosed with gender dysphoria? And what ethical considerations should apply in deciding whether and how to treat them? With Jane Fae, Graham Linehan, Torr Robinson and Kiri Tunks.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000fgsp?

"Why are you being mad?" sums the whole issue up so well.

I'm with DULang. We could make it a drinking game!

Oh , many emails... and only reply was...though wet seem kind of appropriate too,

Oh no..my mp Alex Sobel is on that list, Ro despite ay email from me and I am sure others. Only as wet was that he would be looking into it....

I am SO excited to discover what batshittery labour have in store for tus tomorrow.

It’s a wild old ride.

On the bright side, the metro won't have to interview her again.

I think it's very unlikely that the Metro, a reasonably pro trans organ, made these quotes up out of nothing.

Hopefully this experience might peak them a bit. Peak Dawn, anyway.

in order to give people the skills to confidently challenge these ideas

Not one of these people, including this idiot MP, could "confidently challenge" an articulate feminist on this if they had to do it face to face, and they couldn't skew the terms of the debate etc. Not one of them could win in a fair fight.

Hence #nodebate

You're expecting people who call themselves Marxists (favoring "luxury communism" or otherwise) on the internet to have actually read Marx, never mind Engels? Bless your optimism.

"Monogamy arose from the concentration of considerable wealth in the hands of a single individual man-and from the need to bequeath this wealth to the children of that man and of no other. For this purpose, the monogamy of the woman was required, not that of the man,"

Engels is talking about the hijacking of female reproductive labour by men to create sons to inherit men's wealth. This is the materialist analysis.

it takes the more complex form of a particular biological reductionism falsely interpreted through Marxist materialism – although it is what Marx himself would have called a “vulgar materialism”

Do any of these people read Engels? Any of them?

"In the heroic age a Greek woman is, indeed, more respected than in the period of civilization, but to her husband she is after all nothing but the mother of his legitimate children and heirs, his chief housekeeper and the supervisor of his female slaves,whom he can and does take as concubines if he so fancies." Emphasis mine, from The Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State. www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/origin_family.pdf

Engels makes it very clear that monogamy (for women, the men still get to use prostituted women) is to ensure paternity and the wife becomes valuable for her fecundity above all other things.

I really like this from twitter especially why are you being mad

rapists should not be imprisoned with women. especially when so many of the women will have been victims of sexual violence themselves. why are you being mad

My guess is she's been getting an earful all evening from the TWAW lobby.

I was reading the other day (Lachlan Stuart I think) about how she agreed to the Labour manifesto before publication and then started tweeting against it as soon as it came out.

So does this make Dawn Butler a transphobe? Shouldn’t she be expelled? At the very least she needs to be re-educated.

I hope Metro recorded the interview.

@jadefinch the comments on that tweet are amazing, thank you so much for sharing it.

It's sad, watching your own party do this to themselves. But the dark comedy is undeniable.

She's clarified her clarification by making everything much less clear

Women betrayed for £15k. Good to know our worth to you Dawn.

Andrew Watson is that idiot who picked a fight with Helen Joyce and lost isn’t he ?

so there shouldn't be any TW in female prisons because we should be referring to them as women, not as TW.

Yes women & also 'females with a transgender experience/history'

So can I check Dawn Butler MP (shadow minister Women & Equalities) position as its believed to be now?

Back to babies aren't born with sex, transwomen are women, transmen are men & non-binary are valid?

Of course its ok for vulnerable female prisoners to be locked in with child rapists, providing they identify as TW & are not too violent?
Child rape can of course be recorded as being committed by a female if the male perpetrator is a transwoman because TWAW?
Women might be expelled from the Labour party for asking these sort of questions? TBC

Any news on whether Dawn Butler MP understands why transmen aren't in male prisons?