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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The struggles of getting a haircut as a non-binary person

234 replies

Awning10 · 18/02/2020 10:44

twitter.com/i/status/1224664146257620994

OP posts:
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 21/02/2020 16:42

Winesalot
It feels like the teenagers who dyed their hair green or blue when I was in my twenties.

That reminds me so much of someone adult commenting of teenagers in the mid-sixties, "They all wear the same sort of jeans to show they are different."

Yes, back then jeans were only just starting to be worn by both sexes in this country; and if you were female and wearing jeans quite a lot of shops and caffs wouldn't let you in, any more than they would let in a male with hair which was over his collar. (In 1968 a judge refused to hear a petition for divorce because the woman asking for the divorce came to the court wearing a trouser suit.)

I thought by the seventies that we were growing out of that idiocy, but the masters (and it always is masters) of the fashion business have pushed us right back down there again.

LadyMadderRose · 21/02/2020 10:41

the gender binary does dominate everyday life

Yes it infiltrates everyday life and makes life hard for women and also many men, in various ways. It is shit. It's something we should fight against. And importantly, it's something people have been fighting against, resisting, challenging and subverting, for centuries.

If you want to do that, you can be a plain old woman or man who says no, I don't have to be restricted by gender expectations, and as a woman or man I will do/wear/be what I like. Like MILLIONS of people do, including me. In fact probably only a small minority of people adhere 100% to narrow gender norms (and most of them are trans people trying to "live as" the opposite sex).

If you say "I want to resist gender norms, and being a woman obviously means I have to adopt the pink frilly perfumed norms, and being a man means the opposite, so I must be neither a woman or a man" that's not challenging gender binary at all - it's saying "the gender binary is so true and inherent that the only way to resist it is not to be the sex I am". It's astonishing that a generation is capable of such illogical thinking in the face of all the gender non-conforming that has gone before.

While gender norms still exist, it is not as simple as everyone except Gray Crosbie (and others who declare themselves NB) loves pink or blue, only goes to their "own gender" hairdresser out of 2 strictly defined and separated types of hairdresser, and can't fathom deviating from those norms. It is actually really bloody rude and patronising to suggest that. For example I have been to many hairdressers and I've never even seen one that's all pink and perfumed. The default decor for a hairdresser's is black or white. However, gender expectations do persist in a million more subtle and important ways that have flown right over this person's head - like making women feel so shit about their bodies and roles that they feel the need to opt out of womanhood.

When you encounter an individual who thinks this way, and thinks they're important and special for basically holding up stereotyped gender norms as inevitable and cast in stone, you have to consider they think that because they've been encouraged to and pandered to including by the various authorities and platforms who take this stuff seriously. And because no one has ever helped them think through the reality of gender and sex, how they relate and how they work - and it's mad that this isn't basic education for everyone.

Gray comes across as a woman to me, but I agree the deeper voice gives a more male impression which might suggest some medication. There are various videos and blogs from detransitioners who massively regret what that kind of thing has done to them. Many of them say if they'd understood feminism and that you can be GNC and a woman, they wouldn't have gone there.

Ironically people like this are massive victims of gender expectations while thinking they're brilliantly beyond them.

othervoicesotherrooms · 21/02/2020 09:49

How did we cope in the '80s/'90s ?!!

The struggles of getting a haircut as a non-binary person
othervoicesotherrooms · 21/02/2020 09:46

Where is this person going to get their hair cut FGS?

Pauline at Cuts 'n' Curls might struggle to deviate from a nice bouncy blow wave but there are literally thousands of trendy salons around. They'll do whatever you ask for!

Sounds like twittermoaner needs to broaden their horizons and have a look around.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2020 09:13

It's okay. I dont actually mind having feelings and expressing them

Likewise. And I will continue to do so.

Winesalot · 21/02/2020 09:07

that's a good challenge to the gender binary

I think that it is far more important to challenge sex stereotypes so that people feel that they don’t have to conform to any ‘gender’ as a binary concept or not. If so many people have gender disphoria issues, it is a sign that society does need to change. However, shouldn’t it be making people of all types comfortable to be who they are rather than making so many uncomfortable that they need to take up labels like non-binary in the first place. Maybe look at the hyper-sexualised content that surrounds us first. Most of it feels like ‘woman’ has been reduced to a very narrow sexualised band. My own teen feels she is non-conforming because she likes the Avengers and Star Wars rather than Riverdale. The girls at school have told her for years she must be a boy because Star Wars is for boys!!! Yes, there are others like her, but they all seem to taken the ‘non-conforming’ pathway. Yet, most of my friends female and male all love Star Wars and Avengers and non of us feel we are less a female because of it. (Can’t get her to live Star Trek yet though!)

This is just one very small sample of the pressures being faced by young people today. It feels like the teenagers who dyed their hair green or blue when I was in my twenties. They did it to be ‘non-confirming’ and it just felt they were conforming to what society felt was non-conforming for that time. And that they missed the whole point...

CottonHeadedNinyMuggins · 21/02/2020 09:00

My mum simply has her head shaved too on grade 3 (mid 60s) and it costs £15 for the two of us or a tenner just for me if I've done her hair at home with the clippers. Bargain Smile

CottonHeadedNinyMuggins · 21/02/2020 08:47

Eh? My hairdressers cuts men and women and has done my hair long (well chin length) and short. (as in near pixie) over the years. Why does there have to be a question about it, just shop around until you find the right one that fits you as we all did Confused

FlamingoAndJohn · 21/02/2020 08:43

But now I think, if you keep meeting people who are trans or whose gender is not immediately obvious, if that becomes normal, then that's a good challenge to the gender binary. Like, an actual challenge, rather than just words.

Why challenge the gender binary?
Surely it is vastly more important to challenge toxic masculinity, to allow men who don’t fit the gender stereotype of big tough men to be happy and confident in their masculinity. And to challenge the stereotype of femininity we are being presented with via instagram etc.

To say to a man ‘you aren’t big and butch and don’t like football therefore you aren’t a man’ and to say to a woman ‘you don’t want to remove all your body hair and cover yourself in inches of make up therefore you aren’t a woman’ is what needs challenging. Not being non binary which is the opposite.

testing987654321 · 21/02/2020 08:42

One point about "if that's your only problem... what about rape" type arguments. I agree it's not an important problem in the grand scheme of things, but I am sure lots of us get annoyed and frustrated by minor things. It is one which could be easily solved by haircut prices being based on the type of service asked for.

Socalm · 21/02/2020 08:38

However saying I'm a non "feminine" woman so I must be NB or trans is not challenging the gender binary, it is reinforcing it.

Except that trans people are often at odds with the gender they claim? So, for example, Caitlin Jenner seems more masculine to me than Gray Crosbie. The more beefy Jenner types there are with Heels and Hair, the less feminine these qualities will be, the association will be broken (?) Not in their own minds perhaps but in everyone else's.

Socalm · 21/02/2020 08:28

Having people suggest, that I should associate a gender with some people is therefore in my mind a regressive, repressive step.

True. I find that part hard to understand as well.

midegbabe · 21/02/2020 08:03

"If you keep meeting people whose gender is not obvious "

Having had gender boxes imposed on me from a young age, I try very hard to remember that we can not tell anyone's gender by looking at them and I did really neutral on Harvard's gender bias tests. Having lived my life this way, I don't see any benfit to be gained from associating a gender with anyone. So I don't.

Having people suggest, that I should associate a gender with some people is therefore in my mind a regressive, repressive step.

Sex is however sometimes important to recognise.

LynnSchmob · 21/02/2020 08:01

Gray is 28yrs old so they are pushing their luck hiding behind the shield of youth.
When I was 28 I was made redundant when I was 7 months pregnant. I couldn’t afford to get my hair cut never mind whine about it on social media.

testing987654321 · 21/02/2020 07:55

However saying I'm a non "feminine" woman so I must be NB or trans is not challenging the gender binary, it is reinforcing it

This is such an important point. If I was 19 now I would definitely say I was non-binary or trans. I am so glad I am 50 now and am a woman and can show people that feminine includes flat shoes, not shaving, no makeup, no need for a padded bra despite a flat chest. I am quite perfectly feminine in my natural state. Because I am a woman. Because biology.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 21/02/2020 07:48

But now I think, if you keep meeting people who are trans or whose gender is not immediately obvious, if that becomes normal, then that's a good challenge to the gender binary. Like, an actual challenge, rather than just words.

I'm all up for challenging the gender binary! "Butch" women and "feminine" men have been around for donkeys and no one bats an eye.

However saying I'm a non "feminine" woman so I must be NB or trans is not challenging the gender binary, it is reinforcing it.

AvocadoToes · 21/02/2020 05:29

I wonder if the new rhetoric forced by the trans movement (eg pregnant people, birth parents) will help clarify those issues. For example, with wage statistics, if it is motherhood that drives inequality rather than gender.

Quite a bit of research has been successfully completed without apparently being hampered by language that makes sex obvious. See for example this TUC report on the Motherhood Pay Penalty. As a result we know that there is a pay gap between men and women (at any age or stage of life) plus a pay bonus for being a father, plus a pay penalty for being a mother.
Using sex-neutral language would make it impossible to express any of those three facts.

overnightangel · 21/02/2020 03:05

Is #BeKind now just a passive aggressive cover-all way of saying “you can’t say anything critical ever because if you do that’s akin to making people kill themselves and if you criticise anything you’re a horrible person

Socalm · 21/02/2020 02:25

Then don't read it. No one else is responsible for your feelings.

It's okay. I dont actually mind having feelings and expressing them. Wink

Socalm · 21/02/2020 02:23

What sort of new method can that be, realistically?

I'm not sure. At first I thought it was all wrong too. But now I think, if you keep meeting people who are trans or whose gender is not immediately obvious, if that becomes normal, then that's a good challenge to the gender binary. Like, an actual challenge, rather than just words.

those who are selling and buying with greater social capital — as this young poet clearly has, voiced by the BBC — will fare well...

That's always true though. The vulnerabilities that come with motherhood and poverty still exist, yes. I wonder if the new rhetoric forced by the trans movement (eg pregnant people, birth parents) will help clarify those issues. For example, with wage statistics, if it is motherhood that drives inequality rather than gender

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/02/2020 02:07

This thread actually really upsets me.

Then don't read it. No one else is responsible for your feelings. Gender identity ideology upsets me. Considerably more, I'd bet.

BickerinBrattle · 21/02/2020 02:03

But it’s as if they’ve never heard of feminism and instead think the solution to patriarchy is to opt out of being female. What sort of new method can that be, realistically? As opposed to, say, rebuilding a true feminist movement that actively challenges structures of power?

Where is there ANY analysis of power at all, in these new methods?

It’s all just how well one can negotiate for oneself in the marketplace. Which only serves to reinforce the power of the marketplace. In that marketplace, those who are selling and buying with greater social capital — as this young poet clearly has, voiced by the BBC — will fare well, while those who don’t have similar social capital — for instance, say, a battered wife fleeing her home and needing female only DV refuge — will NOT fare so very well.

What’s painted as radical in this performance by this poet is as reactionary as it comes.

Socalm · 21/02/2020 01:38

This thread actually really upsets me. The more I see of Gray Crosbie's poems, the more I like them. Especially "I left part of myself in the closet".

These are issues feminism should be dealing with. Instead of ranting and sneering, maybe consider that second wave feminism somehow failed to solve all our problems. Maybe this new generation is approaching these same problems with new methods. They're not our enemies.

lionheart · 20/02/2020 23:13

The tweet includes a re-posting of the video-poem.

lionheart · 20/02/2020 23:10

BBC The Social
@bbcthesocial

'It’s been a tough 24 hours here, fighting hate from all around the world, all because we shared the lived experience of a young person in Scotland. We take threats and bullying very seriously here at The Social and we have been reporting those tweets.' #BeKind