Help me reply to Lord Lucas now before debate on Monday

I can tell a cat from a dog but I can’t really articulate why.

It’s a similar thing really.

Very much anecdotal, but I suspect that men's instinct on this isn't nearly as strongly developed as women's (for good reason since it's more of a safety instinct for us).

How often do you hear, even in humour, stories of men who have been getting acquanted with a "lady" only to discover she isn't? No they won't all be true, of course, but I think it does happen far more often than the reverse. I can only think of one case where it was the other way round tbh.

And the point is that even if we can't always tell, when we can we can do something about it and when we can't and someone is caught then the assumption is that they were up to something they shouldn't have been. Men not being allowed has offered a significant degree of protection for women for a long time. I'll take limiting the number over being able to do nothing at all.

• taken a selfie wanking in there to "own the terfs"

• raided sanitary bins for used sanitary wear, to then wear themselves.

• peed from two feet away and missed
• raped someone
• wiped semen on the next bit of loo roll as a 'joke'

artfully posed at their chin. 🤣

A woman has never done the following in a toilet:

• held a sword
• asked me for a tampon
• looked into the mirror with one hand artfully posed at their chin.

The answer to the question is another, better question: how can a woman tell the difference between a transwoman and a man? Answer: we can't because they are both biological males.

This. Yes! Excellent point.

How many times has he chatted up a person of the wrong sex for his orientation?

Oh yes, this. It makes the point perfectly and concisely.

Women developed the ability to discriminate between males and females because it is a critically necessary survival skill. Not so important for men, so they have neither developed the ability nor see the need for it.

Exactly. Women know because it’s a survival skill.

How many times has he chatted up a person of the wrong sex for his orientation?

This is perfect!

Men and women simply need to respect and follow the convention of respecting single sex spaces. It's bloody simple.

Exactly. I don't understand why a man who claims to support women-only provision wants to undermine this convention with pointless musings about 'gender'.

I think that research would be fascinating- from my own small sample (anecdote) males seem to find it harder to tell... easily distracted by the wrapping as it were

The answer to the question is another, better question: how can a woman tell the difference between a transwoman and a man? Answer: we can't because they are both biological males.

reginafelangee
As another poster has pointed out, we manage to obey all kinds of social conventions (queuing, not driving on the pavement, knocking on a door - not bursting in and so on).
Men and women simply need to respect and follow the convention of respecting single sex spaces. It's bloody simple.

Sigh.

You could genuinely do some research on this (though hampered by birth certs and other ID being re-written).

Large sample of male/female/transgender male/transgender female people, in gendered or gender-neutral clothing and hairstyle, videoed or just observed by male/female/transgender volunteers.

Similar sample of male/female etc etc voices.

How accurately can adults tell? How about children and babies? Are men worse at it than women? Are transgender people similar to the men or the women in their ability to distinguish male from female? It could be really interesting.

Unless you ask to see in someone's pants then you cannot possibly be certain what kind of genitals they have.

I don't care what kind of genitals they have. If they're male they should stay out of female spaces.

Signs don't have that kind of power.

Those signs have huge power. They are why the vast majority of men will categorically refuse to enter a female space. Which is also why those men who do wish to break the taboo and disobey the sign are justifiably treated with great suspicion.

I think the person who asked this question is kind of missing the point.

Men often do.

Women developed the ability to discriminate between males and females because it is a critically necessary survival skill. Not so important for men, so they have neither developed the ability nor see the need for it.

I have a fairly large number of friends who are trans (double figures, anyhow, which is probably quite a lot considering what a small proportion of the population they actually are: I don't really believe a figure of 2%, where did that come from?) and am often in social circumstances at which trans people are found.

I have yet to mistake for a woman, for more than twenty seconds or so, a trans person who was born male.

The trouble is that I have no easy answers about how I know so immediately, even in the case of people who have been passing as female for twenty or thirty years, whether someone was originally m rather than f. I would in fact be suspicious of any easy answer on the subject, because I strongly suspect it is different for each individual some of whom I like very much and trust, others of whom I have very little time for, and everything in between. There is some sort of cognitive dissonance "she presents as female but that doesn't feel right" -- but blowed if I can say how I arrive at it.

How in a women's communal toilet can you reasonably ascertain whether another person is a woman or not?

This is a straw man question.

I probably can't spot 100% of men, but with all-female spaces I can challenge the 90% or whatever I can spot, and should someone I hadn't spotted behave in a way that makes me uncomfortable I can challenge them then. So while I don't have 100% accuracy, I can protect my boundary 90% or better.

But if that space is redefined to admit 100% of men, I can't protect my boundary at all.

90% is worse than 100%, but a hell of a lot better than 0%.

Arguing that because we can't do something 100%, it's not worth doing at all is a false dichotomy.

that their child is under five

Sorry

@DodoPatrol Regina, what is the benefit to women (female ones) of losing single-sex facilities?

I never said there was a benefit.

I am not sure I would bother, he knows fine well what a woman is, sigh they all do, and is just using the debate to bully women.

Regina, what is the benefit to women (female ones) of losing single-sex facilities?

OP - you have to challenge the mantra "transwomen are women".

So many of these discussions start from the premise of including transwomen in the category "woman" - when this has no biological basis.

A high proportion of transgender women retain their male anatomy - estimates are at around 85%, possibly higher - and are attracted to women. It is unfair on women to be expected to run this gauntlet in spaces where we will be vulnerable or undressing.

Transwomen are male. I'm sorry that nature can be unkind, but I don't see why women should have to bear the brunt of this.

Adam's apple?
TBH usually it's the size of hands and feet that is a 100% giveaway.

I think the person who asked this question is kind of missing the point.