Help me reply to Lord Lucas now before debate on Monday

What I am saying ( or trying to anyway!) is that there are plenty of things we do routinely where we don't ask for evidence before doing it, but we have the back up of law should we need it.

Using driving as I want examples that men can relate to

I am increasingly convinced that men find it easier to understand a transgender POV because they have never experienced sexual discrimination but are caught up in toxic masculinity which means they know that stepping out of line with "gender expression" will lead to bullying for example

Midge, I don't get into cars with people I don't trust. That's the fastest way to get murdered. Women have to live defensively just to stay alive and un-raped. Part of this defence is keeping predators away from spaces we are vulnerable in.

Being polite never stoped a predator, it only helps them.

If someone offers you a lift, do you check their driving license, insurance and car mot first?

It doesn't matter how people in general can tell who is male or female.

The laws and regulations have to be explicit that facilities for females are exactly that - for females.
Any males who use such facilities can be challenged and made to leave.
The social conventions around separation of the sexes works in conjunction with laws to instill in people good manners, so that decent males will refuse to use female-only spaces. Those males who disrespect such social conventions, should rightfully be viewed with suspicion and negativity.
Yes, it's probable that some males might slip through unnoticed, but many of the trans 'ladies' wouldn't. Of this I am sure. We don't get rid of other laws and social conventions just because a few people manage to break them.

As third spaces are rolled out across organisations and public places, the males who continue to disrespect single sex facilities will be viewed with even more distaste and suspicion. Any male who insists on using female only facilities when a third space is available, should be viewed very negatively by society.

We are a social species, and the combination of laws and social conventions is what keeps people in general to maintain their manners and respectful behaviour.

My answer to him is - why should we to know? Why can we not go to the bloody loo in peace knowing that if a man come in we can holler? And anyone looking at him walking in to the will also holler? Why introduce doubt for us when we have our knickers down????

Surely the point about single sex toilets is not that some men may sneak in undetected or otherwise, but that they are not allowed in and if they do then they can be prosecuted for breaking the law and as such they keep out. We don’t say theft, rape, assault, fraud are ok just because some people get away with it.

Also YES to this. Common sense. Put way better than I could too

'How can you tell' is such a non question to me IF (and this is rare..very rare) a transwoman passes 100%, then basically, women would not even know. Such a person is still male but, noone would know anyway. They would not alarm women who have had experiences with male violence, and hopefully, would not be a threat either, given MOST males aren't. Still a coin toss though I guess as being trans doesnt change the risk..The huge majority of people, you do not need to ask to look in their knickers to know which sex they are, and to pretend that you do...is just offensive and faux stupidity tbh

I very much enjoyed this particular tweet.

Ralph Lucas
@LordLucasCD
·
Feb 12
I would like to see Stonewall lay aside its kimono and baseball bat, and Fawcett hear the call to courage, and sit down together to sort out a commonsense solution.

How can we tell when fraudsters break the law? Does everyone recognise a telephone scammer or do some people fall for it? Are identity thieves always caught? Can we always successfully keep burglars out of our houses? So why do we have laws against any of these if people are sometimes prepared to break the law and they get away with it?

Surely the point about single sex toilets is not that some men may sneak in undetected or otherwise, but that they are not allowed in and if they do then they can be prosecuted for breaking the law and as such they keep out. We don’t say theft, rape, assault, fraud are ok just because some people get away with it.

Why does it matter? If we go back to the old rules of males can't be in the ladies then why does it matter if we can tell the difference or not?

If a transwoman passes as a woman then nobody would ever know if the TW broke the convention and used the ladies.

The question suggests that all the transwomen would still try to come in and women would have to police entry.

Lord Lucas also needs to familiarise himself with the history of women's loos, IMO.

Women created their own spaces in order to be able to participate in public life. It really is as simple as that.

Very little has actually changed since those days - women gained the vote, a few hard won rights, the ability to (largely) be in control of their own fertility - but the threat to women from males persists.

Rape, sexual assault, harassment, abuse towards women, by males, is still epidemic. Women have very little legal redress. Still. An estimated one in ten rapes are reported at all, and of the ones reported, there is a shamefully low number that even go to trial.

An FOI request to the home office showed that a staggering 90% of sexual assaults against women which took place in changing rooms, took place in gender neutral changing rooms. Gender neutral facilities are not beneficial to women. Allowing any males to self identify into women's single sex facilities is not good for women - because then ANY male can gain access - even those who are sexual predators, just by saying "I identify as a woman". Where's the safeguarding?

www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-Womens-Public-Toilets-in-Britain/

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

His question: How in a women's communal toilet can you reasonably ascertain whether another person is a woman or not?

If services are either separated by gender or sex, then women's sex segregated services are 100% easier to visually police then gender separated services.

How would you visually ascertain someone's gender? clothing, hair, make-up, muscle mass, facial hair, Adams apple, shoes, accessories? Well no because all can belong to either gender.

Sex is the only way we can visually seperate services

I'd ask why they're asking this question. Because it sounds to me like a response to TRAs trying to say that it's not a watertight system and therefore shouldn't be used.

But, laws or rules aren't expected to instill 100% compliance just by existing. e.g. theft is illegal. The illegality doesn't stop it, but it demonstrates to law abiding people that they shouldn't do it. In my local library, no one shout, There are no signs up about not shouting, and I bet some people do it sometimes. But the culture is not to shout in the library and people for the most part go along with it.

Or the TRAs might be saying that it's an unfair system as some TW do pass (increasingly with kids transitioning before puberty, there will be more who do pass).

Trying to assert that women can always tell is an argument we'll lose, and it's a distraction. The point is THEY know whether they should be there or not, and we make rules and laws for the behaviour we want to see.

I was referring to Lord Lucas's comment on genitals.

Male genitals are irrelevant. Apart, of course, from when we choose to see our lover's genitals and when they are imposed upon us without our consent.

Whilst as a man he is unlikely to feel distressed by females, How does he feel about females who identify as men in the men's loos? Does he think he would not notice? Would it make him feel uncomfortable using the urinal? Does he think he won't notice?

You're right, JellySlice of course - but my obsession with penises stems from only wanting to see one by my own consent, and certainly not in a women's changing room.

If they're not going to draw the line at biological sex, then they should draw it at male genitalia.

I don’t see the relevance of the question anyway. Even if every single transwoman passed as female, they shouldn’t be in women’s spaces because they’re MALE.

We don’t say “oh well you can’t tell just by looking who is shoplifting and has stuff hidden in their coat - therefore its pointless that shoplifting is illegal”.

What's this obsession with penises?

I don't need to see his penis to know that a person is male.

Here is another man assuming that he knows what goes on in the women's toilets. Here is another man assuming that he knows what we can and cannot do, what we do and don't want.

In that long twitter thread he appears to say that women's changing rooms can't be separated along the lines of biological sex, because these things can be blurred.

I cannot see how any fair determination can be made of a person’s sex in circumstances where they are fully clothed – as I assume that women usually are in the open areas of ladies’ toilets.

But seems to argue that women's sports should be segregated by biological sex (well that's something I suppose).

I think we can be sure that transwomen will be allowed into female communal changing rooms, from what he says.

But THEN he says: Communal changing rooms are in some ways safer than toilets – more open – but on the other hand genitals may be exposed, and it is clear to me that exposed male genitals do not belong in women’s public changing rooms

So does he realise that a high proportion of transwomen DO have male genitals (approx 85%).

SO - right at this moment, in these times of apparent craziness where some argue biological sex doesn't exist, I'd straight up settle for "NO PENISES" in women's changing rooms. And a reassurance that I can call someone to have anyone showing a penis in a changing room REMOVED, a reassurance that I would not be called a transphobe, and be removed from the changing room myself.

Self ID should not be introduced, and the Equality Act exemptions should remain - so that I can choose for a biological woman to do my smear test/mammogram/any intimate care.

Myself and my DD were members of David Lloyd btw - which has communal changing rooms and very see through shower doors. I've left now. I'm not running the risk of my 12yr old daughter seeing an adult penis in the changing rooms. Fuck them. I'm going to write to them and tell them that tonight, actually. I should have done it before - they've been ringing and emailing me with offers to come back to them.

Even if the odd few males pass well enough to slip by unnoticed women and girls still have to retain the right to challenge males in female spaces if need be.

Not all toilet spaces are equal either. I'd rather they be purely sex based but on a personal level I probably wouldn't take too much notice in a busy services off the M1 on a Sat aft where there are dozens of of cubicles and about 30 people a min going through them. That same space at 3am Sun morning might feel quite different though if the space is very empty and you're the only woman in there.

Here's the twitter thread. Apols if it's a repost

twitter.com/LordLucasCD/status/1227664630652243968

How did he know he wanted to date / have sex with someone before clothes were taken off?

I suppose the reality is that in some very rare cases it might not be possible to tell. In the vast majority of cases however it is immediately obvious - the idea that transwomen pass as women is a complete delusion. This needs to be stressed!

But tell him this question is irrelevant. It is a red herring. The point is we need to have strong legal and social barriers to men entering women’s spaces. Which can be enforced by the courts, who are best placed to judge individual cases. Otherwise you inevitably end up with a middle aged man in a room where teenage girls are getting changed. That’s not right & not something any decent man would want to see.

I have myself been in a position where I was alone in an open plan swimming pool changing room, naked, with an obviously male person (stubble! Chest hair!) recording something in the mirror (me? himself? God knows) on his phone. It was frightening and demeaning. I felt humiliated and afraid. When I complained I was told this person was a transwoman. It happens in real life. It shouldn’t. It will absolutely get worse unless we stop it now.

Ask him if he thinks teenage girls should be able to choose to have privacy from men when undressing. It really is that simple.

It's ridiculous to suggest we don't know the difference and I agree that anecdotally men's instincts are less developed in a lot of cases.

I was just reading his twitter thread on this. Most of it is reasonable but I think he has a blind spot on this aspect.