Help me reply to Lord Lucas now before debate on Monday

The grown-ups are finding their voice again, particularly when they realise there's a lot of people out here who also champion rights, but also safety, privacy and dignity.

Tanni - if there's a remote possibility you follow these boards. not sure if you minded disclosing that information, or you're just open about it anyway. But if it was at all uncomfortable, thank you on behalf of us many of here - you shouldn't have to detail that sort of information, but it properly hit home why female spaces matter.

I know the HoL isn't the place for this, but I wish someone could've called out the LibDems for their Ferrer Pharma £1.4 mill donation for the last election.

The LibDems were very much pushing the self identification and 'transwomen are not to be feared' line. But it was interesting to see others push back with the danger of anyone with an abusive intention. It was like a light was being shone.

Hope that didn't crash into yours' Winesalot - thought it may be useful for those not able to watch right now and of course it'll all be documented in HoL documents better than I just did!

Like you said MrsSnippy, Baroness Barker able to listen to Tanni's speech and then say, pretty much, 'of for goodness sake, do we have to do this all over again' and 'where's the evidence?'

I don't get how Baroness Barker gets to pull out an anecdote without evidence-back-up about masculine-looking women in US toilets, but trashes Lord Lucas for not coming up with a peer-reviewed study on anything that's happened to women in the UK in unisex toilets.

Where has everyone's brains gone over on the genderist bench?

(Cue all the amazing people on the internet who have gathered the evidence, in the absence of any one in office who really should be gathering the evidence)

Stonewall should put down its kimono & baseball bat...

Thank you. I listened to the last pat. Brinton and Barker really are anti women having any safe spaces aren't they?

Well, I enjoyed that! Thank you for the link :)

Thanks pombear

Brief but interesting!

pombear

Thanks for all the transcription, pombear

Bloomfield:
"where there are problems, a LA can require owner to put it right. If gender is causing problems, an LA can require it to put it right.

Baroness Nicholson referred to her concerns...access to facilities when you need them is important with regards to pregnancy, disability, sex or gender...we have protected rights under the EA Act and I would like to reassure Baroness N that the Act protects those rights [lists those rights]. The act is clear that trans people should be treated as the gender they present but that can be excluded and determined on case by case basis.

Does include people intending to, undergone transition which doesn't require medical treatment. ....We are committed to maintaining safeguards for women....law makes clear...provide safe spaces for those using them. The EA also allows people with Gender Reassignment to be excluded where it's necessary and proportionate.

Regulations and standards need to be progressed in our culture, regulation and technology. We have best practice standards..on how to progress standards....

[lots on regulatory framework on Dame Judith Hackett's recommendations on building and fire safety including review to upgrade safety]

Specific questions raised by Lord Lucas, there's no recommendations or prescription for gender-neutral toilets.

B Nicholson and Grey-Thompson have mentioned to me the lack of accessible toilets re availability...it's not always a question of legislation.

I'm afraid the data on incidences of theft and assault is not what this dept holds but will be from Home Office and I will endeavour to find out, and what practical arrangements are made to police these spaces.

Baronness Thompson mentioned...our review includes accessible toilets, including Changing Places toilets and the wider provision of accessible toilets in public places.

Baronness Greengross rightly drew attention to the removal of public toilets, a point very well made, which I also raised a question on last year.

She also mentioned the good work the APPG is doing on the Bins for Boys campaign and that Network Rail has abolished charges for most London network rail stations."

Blimey the Lib Dems are a master class in gaslighting aren't they?

Baroness Bloomfield is up now talking about urinary leash for women in a historical sense.

And discussing the times transwomen can be excluded from single sex spaces. She is awesome tonight.

Bloomfield:

"It became illegal not to ensure there were separate male and female toilets"

"Statutory guidance....british standards are by themselves voluntary but we often refer to them as...approved ways of complying with guidance. Sanitary installation part 1...etc!"

" Standard applies to new buildings, communal changing, swimming pools, shops etc. Standard gives helpful gender guidance, tables male to female ratios....developers will use estimate of population using the building...if not know...20% more female. If the guidance was followed it would recommend equal number, doesn't explicitly recommend gender neutral but that they should be fully contained" (SOmeone's been reading Michelle Moore's work?!)

Baroness Bloomfield extensively on the history of women's toilets!

Vice president of Local Government Association Lord Kennedy of Southward calls for a longer debate in future.

Supports calls for more public toilets.

Nicholson and Grey-Thompson raise important issue of long way to go to meet adequate needs. We must have an open and respectful debate to address concerns, and sorry to hear about her abuse on social media which is unacceptable.

Re toilets and changing facilities in public debates - only by discussing these issues we can come to agreement on way forward. Need to talk in a calm manner, not aggressive, in a sensitive way.

3 issues:
Parity of access between men and women.
Need more womens' than men for parity.
Needs of trans community to feel safe, protected and not discriminated agains.
Needs of women, again, to feel safe, protected and not discriminated against.

Respecting people, respetcting difference must be the right thing to do.

Often people,, trans people, are abused. Also we need to make policy, regulation, and decisions on evidence and to challenge ourselves on what we think are acceptable norms or attitudes.

I listened carefully to Lord Blencathra - some of comments weren't particularly helpful. This isn't about satisfying an aggressive militatnt lobby...need to come to discuss mattter in a reasonable way, respect to both Stonewall and Fawcett.

I want to accommodate both demands in public buildings...some public buildings have switched over to gender neutral facilities.

I may be right, in Southwark, main toilets are all gender neutral.

MrsSnippy - LibDems

I thought I was completely over-killing it by sending Lord L the whole contents of the 'it will never happen' resource threads, I'm glad I did now in the face of the claims that there has been no evidence of men abusing women's toilets / changing spaces

How can Barker listen to Tanni explain how she has to catheterise herself with the toilet door open in the women's toilets and then come out with these LIES!

Baroness Barker:

Women should be fearing men, it's not transwomen who are (?) crimes against them.

We are not having a rational debate that [Lord Lucas] wants.

Seeing as there's no evidence that EA is having any affect, we should keep it as it protects transwomen, women and transwomen.

Thanks Pombear.

back over these debates

Back over these debate..... Pretending they've happened before.

Tanni is PROPERLY brave