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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help me reply to Lord Lucas now before debate on Monday

235 replies

refusetobeasheep · 17/02/2020 15:40

He has responded to my email asking him to ensure the definition of women is born female at birth.

His question: How in a women's communal toilet can you reasonably ascertain whether another person is a woman or not?

Please give me your best answers now before I reply.

Especially safe guarding points!!

Will mention the way men walk, talk, look ... that entirely possible i have not spotted a post op trans before. but i would spot a bearded man or someone who made me as a woman feel unsafe. And the new self -ID would mean I would have to ignore my instincts and happily allow any man who says he is a woman to access my communal changing area / that of my 9 year old daughter ..

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EyesOpening · 20/08/2020 18:41

this
and where there is ambiguity we need the law to be on the side of those willing to challenge an apparent male in female spaces. Not a law that terrifies women into thinking knowing someone is male is a hate crime!

ThinEndoftheWedge · 25/02/2020 17:14

So a transphobic hate crime is defined by the transperson - including accurate application of he/she as per the dictionary definition of the English language BUT indecent exposure is defined by the man’s intent in exposing their penis in a female changing room in front of women and girls...

Fucks sake.

So I will call the police re an incident of flashing/indecent exposure and I will be criminalised for a transphobic hate crime.

Do we think they hate women and girls...?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 25/02/2020 14:21

Time to start being offended, then!

DodoPatrol · 25/02/2020 14:07

'genital exposure with intent to shock'

I suspect we'd see a lot of wide-eyed 'but I was only changing, no intention to shock, so not guilty, yer honour'.

The right to perceive something as offensive seems to be quite one-way, so far.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 25/02/2020 13:48

What I don't understand is, has the law about indecent exposure been repealed? I'm sure that I saw that bloke who set out to walk naked from John O'Groats to Lands End being arrested for it yet again really quite recently.

If it still exists, any man who "gets his bits and bobs out" (to quote that silly policewoman) in a changing room or lavatory which has women and children (or perhaps right-minded men like Lord Lucas who seems to have found being flashed at offensive) in it could be done for indecent exposure?

Wikipedia says that in England and Wales the actual wording has been changed

This provision was repealed by section 66 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 which replaced the offence of "indecent exposure" and other sexual offences with legislation that is more specific and explicit. Current laws apply only to genital exposure with intent to shock those who do not want to see them. The maximum penalty is two years' imprisonment, but this is extremely rare as most cases are dealt with by a fine or through community service. People convicted of exposure contrary to section 66 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 must sign the Violent and Sex Offender Register if they are sentenced to a term of imprisonment or a community order in excess of 12 months, or if the person they exposed themselves to was aged under 18 years of age.

Sounds to me as if this ought to be used a lot.

ThePurported · 25/02/2020 13:44

If Lord Lucas didn't get it before, he certainly does now!

He mentioned gender neutral toilets in the Dept of Education - isn't that where one of the Stonewall darlings removed single-sex provision without any consultation?
The civil service seems to be full of TRAs who don't give a shit about women. How captured is the GEO?

ThePurported · 25/02/2020 13:33

I'm a little surprised that Ruth didn't attend to make sure everyone understood TWAW. Could it be that she doesn't give a shit anymore now it's not her paid gig?

Don't be fooled. Baroness Hunt is working to get the spousal consent (exit clause) removed, which seems to be the current TRA priority.

BoreOfWhabylon · 25/02/2020 13:00

If Lord Lucas didn't get it before, he certainly does now!

He's retweeting loads of GC stuff Grin

Newuser123123 · 25/02/2020 12:36

I'm sure it's been mentioned before but Sal Brinton is seen as architect of lib dem policy on this

NeurotrashWarrior · 25/02/2020 12:36

Has Tish's thread been posted yet? Good analysis!

twitter.com/stilltish/status/1232280374434242563?s=21

Michelleoftheresistance · 25/02/2020 12:33

You can intend to embark on anything. I intend to embark on the Titanic and head to Atlantis in May, personally. But anyone stopped at the door of the women's toilets only has to say 'I identify as' and that's the end of the conversation. They could have identified and intended to embark on transition two minutes ago or two years ago or two decades ago, it makes no odds.

As it's not rationally possible to challenge people and there is no ID for this, any male with any physical presentation has to be assumed to have self declared simply by the act of walking into a female only facility. This is part of the 'well if you get raped you can always call the police afterwards' kind of batshittery. And it's just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. It isn't about which males and when and how and are they genuine, it's about female sex based rights and about female facilities being intended to meet the needs of females.

It doesn't matter how genuinely intentional the male is, the fact is by walking into a female facility it is no longer single sex, many women are extremely uncomfortable about this, it represents a massive loss of respect for privacy, dignity and basic safety ethics for females as well as the removal of recognition as females as a sex class entitled to their own provision in their own rights, and some females will then be excluded from access to any provision.

Go and sort out the issues with male only provision, or provide additional provision. Stop trying to wangle away women's rights to better enable males.

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 25/02/2020 12:16

The LBC article is great, thanks Wines! Great quotes from Lord Lucas and Lord Blencathra. I feel like some thank-you notes are in order, though whether I'll actually get round to it is another matter as I already have a big to-do list of emails and letters I want to send but never seem to manage!

OvaHere · 25/02/2020 12:10

That £1.4m donation to the LibDems has been worth every penny hasn't it?

It would appear so.

I'm a little surprised that Ruth didn't attend to make sure everyone understood TWAW. Could it be that she doesn't give a shit anymore now it's not her paid gig?

Thanks pombear for the transcribing. A much underrated skill!

MrsSnippyPants · 25/02/2020 12:04

I watched it live Ova and din't spot her.

That £1.4m donation to the LibDems has been worth every penny hasn't it?

OvaHere · 25/02/2020 12:03

Tanni was fantastic too (sorry reading the thread backwards Grin)

OvaHere · 25/02/2020 12:01

Did the new Baroness Hunt turn up for this one?

OvaHere · 25/02/2020 12:01

Well done to Lord Lucas for tackling this. He did a great job considering how much heat surrounds this debate.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 25/02/2020 11:54

Thanks OldCrone

  • sorry can’t read the full thread now.

Does anyone know if a equality impact assessment was done or an FOI about it? I submitted an FOI and have been told to write to different agencies...

OldCrone · 25/02/2020 11:50

Baroness Nicholson talks about the NHS guidance.
improvement.nhs.uk/documents/6005/Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf

Thread on the guidance is here.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3705528-New-NHS-guidance-on-same-sex-accommodation

OvaHere · 25/02/2020 11:46

That's some serious whataboutery from Brinton Hmm

OldCrone · 25/02/2020 11:33

This is Baroness Nicholson's contribution. I think this is important because she talks about the meaning of 'gender reassignment' in the Equality Act 2010 and who should be covered by it. It is generally interpreted to mean if someone wakes up one day and says they have decided that they are transgender, they are covered. She disputes this interpretation.

------

I request the Minister to think about the point I am about to make, which concerns the confusion the Equality Act 2010 has created around the definition of a woman. I will offer a comparison between the Act and annexe B of the National Health Service guidelines on same-sex accommodation. Why have I chosen the National Health Service? It is the single biggest employer in Britain and probably offers the most comprehensive suite of changing and toilet facilities of any organisation.

Annexe B is headed, “Delivering same-sex accommodation for trans people and gender variant children”. I point out to the Minister that this misrepresents the legislation that it purports to represent. The second paragraph starts:

“Under the Equality Act 2010, individuals who have proposed, begun or completed reassignment of gender enjoy legal protection against discrimination. A trans person does not need to have had, or be planning, any medical gender reassignment treatment to be protected under the Equality Act: it is enough if they are undergoing a personal process of changing gender”.

As is clear, instead of quoting the Equality Act, this guideline paraphrases Section 7(1), which states:

“A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”.

While the need to be proposing to transition, in the process of transitioning or to have completed transition is included, the NHS guideline omits the phrase, “by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”.

In order to qualify for the protected characteristic of gender reassignment within the meaning of the Act, the individual must intend to embark on or to have actively embarked on a process of physiological change. While the Act indicates that this should include surgery, the minimum requirement should be that the individual is taking cross-sex hormones or can provide evidence to prove that they are planning to do so.

With regard to, “changing … other attributes of sex”, since sex is biological, this refers to making some kinds of anatomical change. The Equality Act as passed into law never intended that individuals could simply self-ID as the sex they are not. Instead, the Act established qualifying criteria. Individuals wanting to claim protection from discrimination by virtue of gender reassignment had either to be changing aspects of their physiology or be able to prove an established intention to do so.

Proof that the authors of the NHS guidance have misunderstood Section 7(1) of the Equality Act comes in the second half of the second paragraph:

“In addition, good practice requires that clinical responses be patient-centred, respectful and flexible towards all transgender people whether they live continuously or temporarily in a gender role that does not conform to their natal sex”.

Section 7 of the Act offers nothing whatsoever about living in a gender role: it is about making physical changes or at least having evidence-based intentions to do so. A man could wear a frock, rouge and nail gel every day of the week for 10 years without qualifying for the protected characteristic of gender reassignment according to the Equality Act 2010.

It must be concluded that the NHS hospital guidelines contained in annexe B are significantly divorced from the wording and intent of the legislation that they claim to reflect. I want the Minister to think about that and identify whether the NHS should in fact withdraw its guidelines and do something that actually follows the Act.

EwwSprouts · 25/02/2020 10:45

Baroness Brinton is a trustee of UNICEF who have a strong stance on women, toilets & education/public life impacts. Does she regularly undermine the UNICEF policy?