Ex prison chief expresses concern about trans women in female jails

Let’s keep out the violent abusive TW sure.

There are plenty of female women in prisons exhibiting more than just ‘low level’ aggression and unpleasant behaviour to vulnerable women.

Fieldofgreycorn Im not sure that you understand the definition of 'vulnerable' within Safeguarding frameworks.

Recognition of specific vulnerablities of females within the criminal justice system was the focus for a very important Ministry of Justice strategy (2018):
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719819/female-offender-strategy.pdf

I'm also confused by your use of 'female women' is this as opposed to 'male women' or a typo?

Fieldofgreycorn
There are plenty of female women in prisons

Would that be as opposed to the male women in prisons?

Wasn't Morton's STA one of the organisations actively lobbying for removal of single sex exemptions in the Equality Act?

James Morton (& the various groups Morton is involved with) has been lobbying to undermine women's sex based righst & children's Safeguarding for years- in Scotland, at Westminster & beyond.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3829786-James-Morton-scottish-trans-alliance-quote?

James Morton as disingenuous as ever there. Wasn't Morton's STA one of the organisations actively lobbying for removal of single sex exemptions in the Equality Act?

Today is the final day of the Scottish Govt consultation on sex self-id.

Rhona Hotchkiss was interviewed on Woman's Hour this morning:

"The Scottish Government is currently consulting on a Bill to reform the Gender Recognition Act. Jane talks to Rhona Hotchkiss, former governor of Cornton Vale prison in Stirling and signatory of SNP women’s pledge and James Morton, Manager of the Scottish Trans Alliance about concerns for protecting trans rights and women’s rights and how any Scottish legislation will sit with the UK Equality Act 2010."
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000gczr

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3851148-Womans-Hour-Today-17th-March

guidance to complete the consultation:
forwomen.scot/

Who are these ‘harmless’ TW prisoners? If so harmless then why are they in custody? Surely by definition every TW prisoner is a prisoner because they have caused harm.

I'm sure the official message is that you can't get pregnant through lesbian sex with a trans woman. Because feelinz and staying on message are a hell of a lot more valid that biological facts. It'll be the fucking virgin birth next.
I'm furious for the women who have already been raped in prison and those to follow. I'm furious that "being nice" to those with lady penises matters more than their safety. I'm furious that few in power, Labour candidates included, give a shit about them.

If they are assessing the tw prisoner before allowing them in the female estate, why are they not also assessing the females for their ability to share naked spaces with the tw?

This is the $64,000 question.

Thing is it could be consensual. But what does consensual mean when you are locked up with a person that everyone around you is insisting is female and you're in a lesbian relationship? How do you negotiate contraception or sexual consent?

Of course it's likely that women in prison arent quite so delicate about language as students and Labout Party leadership candidates. But still - how would you even ask for condoms, if there's no official recognition that heterosexual sex is going to take place?

I spoke to a nurse who works in sexual health and contraception a few weeks ago. Fabulous woman. I asked about contraceptive services in women's prisons. She looked at me strangely.

Relevant as we'd just had an amazing talk from Dr Laura Abbott whose doctoral work is on pregnant women in prison.

I suspect we won't care when female prisoners are raped by their cell mates with a 'lady penis'. Maybe an increase in prison births will make people sit up and take notice?

"
Today 02:18Gingerkittykat

Stonewall will be along soon to tell vulnerable female prisoners, many who have already been the victims of male violence, to learn to get over their discomfort,"
They just need to start being kinder don't they?

Won't be less vulnerable to what exactly?

Some people seem to fail to recognise that a woman's previous experience can mean that the presence of someone who appears male in the wrong place can trigger a recurrence of mental problem such as as ptsd. This affects a lot of women. It doesn't matter if the person is totally harmless, if you feel scared to the point it affects your behaviour, that is how you feel. And when that feeling can be traced back to previous abuse , typically by someone who appeared nice and kind, you can not argue that it's irrational

If they are assessing the tw prisoner before allowing them in the female estate, why are they not also assessing the females for their ability to share naked spaces with the tw?

Vulnerable to what Fields?

Vulnerable among many other things to coercive abusive relationships with males.

I wonder if TW are often 'alpha females' in female environments.i wonder if being in a relationship with a TW in prison is a status marker and a protective factor for female prisoners. I wonder if that has good or bad outcomes.

Is anyone even asking these questions? Thank you Rhona Hotchkiss.

How does that mean we should automatically include males in female prisons? What kind of logic is that?

It doesn’t, necessarily. But excluding the odd non dangerous tw from female prisons isn’t going to mean vulnerable women are much less vulnerable.

There's that interesting study showing levels of assault being higher in women's prisons than men's.

But it did acknowledge that levels of mental health problems and drug abuse were much much higher in the (1/4 the size) female prisoner cohort than the mens cohort, and they hadn't controlled for those variables.

So it comes back to the same thing; female prisoners are fragile. Fragile to a degree that i can barely imagine. They don't look like lovely cosy women who need protecting, any more than the victims of child sex exploitation looked like victims to those who were determined to see what were raped 14 year olds trying to protect their families from revenge attacks, as gobby chav slags making bad choices Sticking a bunch of convicted transwomen into a locked area with them is insane. Insane.

There are plenty of female women in prisons exhibiting more than just ‘low level’ aggression and unpleasant behaviour to vulnerable women.

So? How does that mean we should automatically include males in female prisons? What kind of logic is that?

Rhona mentioned a trans woman who seemed to relish walking around with a very visible erection and it was very uncomfortable and distressing for the women. How many females do that to their fellow inmates?

Women in prison are no different from women elsewhere. They also feel discomfort having to undress, defecate, shower etc in such close proximity to males.
Prison is a stressful environment as it is. No need to compound women's worries by adding yet another dimension to be anxious about.

It's definitely useful in certain contexts, like aggressive male prisoners who are known to be hostile to those who are not white, or who are gay / trans. You don't want staff to inadvertently put troublemakers with those who might be vulnerable.

But it appears to me that using the same system in female prisons has the effect of women feeling reluctant to say they would rather not share their intimate living space with a trans woman because it can be recorded on their file with the code usually reserved for the type of person who has history for being aggressive towards trans people.

Transwomen prisoners don't have to be extremely dangerous criminals to exhibit low level male aggression and unpleasant behaviour,

Let’s keep out the violent abusive TW sure.

There are plenty of female women in prisons exhibiting more than just ‘low level’ aggression and unpleasant behaviour to vulnerable women.

Hm. I used to work somewhere where we had a similar system of marking certain clients who were not to be in contact with female staff. Because of previous violence/abuse/stalking/threats.

Some women prisoners might be ok with transwomen in the estate. Not everyone has to be necessarily opposed to it.

The problem is that it has the potential for causing psychological issues for some women, even if there's no violence or intimidation from the transwomen. The distress of women should never be ignored in favour of males.

I also learned from Rhona's talk that all prisoners have personal files and there are codes that are put on your file to help prison staff manage inmates.
For example, in a male prison, if you have a prisoner who is known to be a hardcore racist or part of some white supremacist gang, he will have a code in his file that is essentially a marker for 'racist'. So if there's a situation where staff are looking to house a black prisoner, they can check the files and know not to put the black prisoner in the same cell as the white supremacist guy. Makes sense in a way to avoid potential problems.

There's also a code for those who aren't happy to be housed with trans inmates.
This has the unintended effect of some female prisoners saying they are fine sharing with trans people because they don't want to get this code put on their file that effectively labels them as a 'transphobe'. Women in prison are just as susceptible as any other women in the whole kindness malarky. They want to be seen as nice and accepting and not be labelled as a transphobe by their fellow inmates or staff. So they are less likely to express their wish to not be housed with a transwoman.

Thanks for posting the longer clip. It's an insane situation; I'm glad Rhona Hotchkiss is speaking up.

And likewise, women are being forced to share cells with violent rapists, as part of their sentence.

So, it's possible that a violent rapist who has been locked up in a male estate and who therefore hadn't offended against women recently for lack of opportunity would have a good chance to be transferred.

It's difficult to believe how fucked-up this is.

Rapists are being given access to vulnerable women, who can't escape, as part of their sentence.