Visitors on post-natal wards - a feminist issue?

Can’t you see that’s a selfish position to take?

I suppose the two opposing viewpoints are both selfish - either tell women they can't have their partners there or tell women they have to put up with other women's partners.
There's nowhere to compromise.

I can completely understand the arguments against allowing partners to stay but after an extremely long labour and a CS plus being hooked up to a drip for various reasons for 3 days and being unable to move, pick up my baby to feed etc and no nurses in sight I genuinely couldn't have managed on my own. It's all very well saying other women could help but that leaves things very much to chance with who is around you on the ward (in my case someone in a similar state to me and a women going through withdrawal with social workers in and out making sure her baby was fed etc. It just wouldn't have worked, we were all as hopeless as each other!) I would have happily packed my partner off home to get some sleep if the ward hadn't been woefully understaffed and that's the crux of the issue isn't it. He was also aware that his presence may be making others feel uncomfortable and said he felt intrusive but there was no other option.

More nurses wouldn't have helped - I wanted DH, not complete strangers

Can’t you see that’s a selfish position to take? Would you apply that to other wards in a hospital? Or just maternity?

The problem isn't partners, it's badly behaved partners.
Clearly several posters on here don't want their partners present, but my DH was a godsend, and stuck up for me when I wanted him to and the nurses were being less than helpful.
More nurses wouldn't have helped - I wanted DH, not complete strangers.
45 years ago, my aunt made a lifelong friend with the woman in the next bed to each other, but yes, people are more insular these days.

I read the thread (deleted) about the numpty complaining at being told of for wandering the maternity ward in a nightshirt, where several midwives mentioned or quoted about male partners treating a post natal ward like a hotel.

The parallels on the thread with many issues discussed here were striking, and all came down to the issue of male socialisation. And that a principle set up for 'nice' men with good social behaviours then means you're dealing with the extremes of poor behaviour with no boundaries.

There were also the usual 'But I'M ok and MY husband is lovely (so women sharing about their fear, distress, lack of privacy, inability to breast feed because of bloke leering through curtains just shut up and deal)' posts.

Also discussion around how it has slid gradually from being males allowed onto post natal wards with extended/overnight visiting to give emotional support to the woman who has just given birth, to males wanting to define their experience, quality of experience and rights in this situation, shifting the center of focus on to them at the expense of the woman who is the patient.

There is a significant danger of eventually moving to the 'right' of a man to be at a birth and on the ward with his child whether or not the woman who gave birth to their child consents to this, and regardless of the negative impact it has on her and the birth. This arises regularly on other boards as an issue with men trying to force this right, and at the moment the woman's consent is final. I also have concerns about abused women who overnight have some respite or opportunity to seek help but won't have if their partner knows they can't be made to leave. And what happens to the women who suffer as a result of other people's partners and their varied behaviours at a very vulnerable time. People are so afraid to say this is about the woman's need and experience, that is what matters.

In a massive ward with half a dozen other women, I meant to write of course.

I don't buy the argument that wards are for women's own good. Having just given birth, bleeding and leaking all over, making new friends was quite far down on my list.

This! It's undignified, too, having to present in such a vulnerable state in a ward with curtains open all on display because it's the ideal of the staff. Society has moved on from seeing patients as pieces of meat who have to put up with lack of privacy and dignity to make life easier for others. I'm not in hospital to learn from other patients or make friends but to get adequate treatment from trained staff and then leave.

I don't buy the argument that wards are for women's own good. Having just given birth, bleeding and leaking all over, making new friends was quite far down on my list.

Me neither. I got moved to a separate room from the bay of 4 because DD was so noisy that one of the other women tried to discharge herself in the middle of the night. Bedside cots are a great idea but not in in a multi-occupancy ward!

It is a feminist issue, but the wrong issues are raised

1. Women need rest post birth, but must also be with their infants. Privacy is essential, yet large wards are the norm.
2. Vulnerable people should never be left in the hospital alone. Children especially should have an advocate present at all times. Mom very likely isn’t capable of that job immediately after birth. I know I couldn’t walk across the hospital to follow my infant to tests after my stomach had been cut open. Dad’s presence is for the baby and it is essential.

You can’t ban partners unless you’re prepared to replace them with more nurses who will offer the care that partners were providing.

It's such a difficult one isn't it. On principal I completely disagree with allowing partners to stay, I completely understand why it's unfair on other patients and wouldn't have wanted to stay on a ward with other women's partners there. But on the other hand I had a c section at a hospital where they didn't allow partners to stay and my DH was sent home within an hour after birth. I was left without a cot in my bay, completely out of it, couldn't reach my buzzer and it was truly awful. I found the immediate post natal period just traumatising. If DH had been there I think the whole thing would have felt more manageable but those early hours of feeling utterly abandoned have really stayed with me. Of course, it's the care that should have been better but I do selfishly wish he could have stayed with me.

I've had my babies in 2 different European countries. Both had private en-suite rooms or maximum double rooms. I can't even imagine trying to rest or learn to breasfeed in a massibe pay with half a dozen other women and all their guests.

I don't buy the argument that wards are for women's own good. Having just given birth, bleeding and leaking all over, making new friends was quite far down on my list.

Yellowandpurple78

That's an interesting observation. I think you are right, people have become much less social, much more focused on their own nuclear family.

I can see that an open ward might be quite nice, if it was fairly quiet. When I had my younger kids, being in a room alone was lonely, my husband was mostly with the older kids. (There are very few wards left in hospitals here.) There was a patient lounge but it wasn't used much, and that's the thing, I think it's really a wider move in society, and it's difficult to work against that in just one area.

I think I am wary to present a particular viewpoint on this as feminist though, because the fact is there is a lot of different feelings that women have about this, and I am not happy with the idea that feminism tells women how they should think about it. People who are feminists likely have a wide variety of views and it's going to be very personal for most, and I think it's extremely alienating to women when they see feminism as telling them how to weight things like the involvement of their partners with their newborns.

I have worked on postnatal wards. Things have changed over the last years 30-40 years. Midwives are met with horror when bedside curtains are opened during the day. When you try to do group discharge talks (rather than repeating the same information 6x with 6 different couples), it is met with disapproval. Women anxiously check their phones for when their husband returns from moving the car.

In an ideal world, beside curtains would be wide open all day. Midwives could clearly see the well-being of the women and babies, rather than relying entirely on a buzzer which is jarring and stressful for the whole ward. Some women would talk to each other and learn from each other. People would feed (breast or bottle) openly and not feel ashamed or embarrassed - and there wouldn’t be a load of husbands and visitors milling around the place.

Unfortunately the answer to all these demands will be a move away from ward bays to instead have postnatal ‘hotels’. This will just increase the workload of staff, as observation of potentially poorly mums and babies in private rooms is a lot more difficult. It also further alienates the nuclear family and perpetuates this idea that we are our own little islands, rather than encouraging friendships and support with other women early on. I think there is a feminist element, but also just this emerging attitude in society of people thinking they cannot cope.

Maternity wards here are barbaric, patients who have had major surgery, whose legs are still numb from regional anaesthetic, who have had complicated instrumental deliveries, left to fetch their own water, with NO pain relief at all, no monitoring, to look after a newborn infant and share sleeping space and even a toilet with 4-8 random men on top of the patients and babies.

If there was space/ single rooms fine, but there isn’t.

Most people want their own partners but not anyone else’s.

In a busy ward, bleeding, sore, exhausted post partum - we need rest - not to listen / be disturbed by other men- who generally seem to over do it to feel included - not all - but many - which affects everyone else.

well then you need a partner to look after you.

And if you don't have one, because plenty of people do not (their spouse has to stay with other children, the patient has had to access CLU hours away from home due to centralisation of consultant-led care), then you're stuffed.

Oh, yes, Katherine, that would be Glasgow. Brand new huge hospital, all rooms private en-suites, except maternity, of course.

It is a feminist issue as men being on the ward threaten the women's rights to privacy and dignity.

Interested what people think about mothers, sisters and female partners being on the ward? Is it men who are the issue or visitors in general?

I would prefer it to be a female only space but can see how it's not really enforceable.

If you have had any other hospital stays, for example due to not maternity- related surgeries, are you also expeted to bring your own staff, or find other patients who are able to help you?

I'ts a feminist issue because maternity wards are woefully understaffed
This. You can’t ban partners unless you’re prepared to replace them with more nurses who will offer the care that partners were providing. When you’ve just given birth and haven’t eaten for 48 hours, and the nurses won’t even make you a hot drink never mind fetch you some food (you have to wait seven hours for breakfast and if you pass out from hunger it’s tough) - well then you need a partner to look after you.

What would be an ideal situation though?

Years ago women stayed in bed for ten days, the babies slept in the nursery. But the separation of older small children from their mums was psychologically damaging, the separation of babies from their mums isn’t ideal. There was a subtle pressure not to breastfeed and the power and control resided with the ward staff.

When I gave birth, dads were rushed out, but there wasn’t enough staff to provide support for mums and babies, and what some of my friends who had caesareans struggled through was frankly barbaric.

And now we have men on maternity wards which is a disaster too.

I think we need to figure out what’s needed and work towards that, rather than trying to fix one bit and cause a problem elsewhere (as keeps happening)

So imo
We need funding for maternity care - we need to realise that this is something important that justifies spending money on.

We need maternity care approaches that centre power, control and care on MOTHERS. Mothers as people needing support, and care; and mothers as people providing support and care.

Maybe we need separate wards for those who choose to have partners stay, and those who prefer a single sex environment - and that choice should be supported.

Having had a CS and not be told what help was available and not see staff during the night (I didn't know I could press buzzer to get baby passed to me while I was still unable to move etc etc) it would have been nice for Dad to stay. However, the other ladies were amazing and there was great helping each other (after the hideous night 1). But regrettably our wards are not designed with other guests in mind. And as not all women want - or can have - someone else to support them it becomes unfair to them. So unfortunately I fall into the camp that they shouldn't be allowed to stay. We should fund hospitals well enough that it isn't necessary.

Is it a feminist issue - no. Just a common sense issue.

They campaign against I think:

Thank you - I'm relieved. I know it comes up a lot in threads and thought I'd read that MN supported partners overnight. I'm pleased to be mistaken.

This is an issue that is posted about a lot on Mumsnet and people are in two opposing camps. You get a lot of women saying they can’t manage to be away from their husbands at such a vulnerable time (I agree it can make you feel that way), that it’s his baby too and he needs to bond early (which I think is rubbish). Part of it comes from lack of staff overnight and the expectation that partners will pick up the slack. This wouldn’t happen on any other ward of course.

Personally I don’t think partners should be allowed outside of visiting hours. For most - but not all - women their stay in hospital is fairly short and I think we should all be able to get through the separation for 24 hours. Our desire to have our partners with us shouldn’t trump other women’s need for privacy.

Just because you know your husband is lovely and respectful, doesn’t mean I will feel the same way, on the other side of a curtain with no underwear on bleeding and aching and leaking - sorry TMI but that’s the reality.

A lot of people are not respectful on wards and think nothing of a family of 10 trooping in to sit round a bedside all day cracking jokes and passing comment.

I was lucky in that I only had to go to a post-natal ward with one of my births and was only there overnight. I realise others’ experiences will have been different.

I wonder if a lot of the women who want their partners overnight are first-timers? Because for most of us it’s just not possible second or third time around because your partner needs to be at home with the other child/ren.

Also mentioned by a Mumsnetter on one of those threads - there is a new hospital being built in her area. Privare or semi-private rooms in all other departments except one, which keeps big open wards. Guess which?