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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottow verdict: Guilty

384 replies

DeployTheTut · 14/02/2020 10:46

I have no words. Reports from Joani Walsh and Maya Forstater at the Trial in St Albans

twitter.com/mforstater/status/1228261217212522497?s=21

twitter.com/joaniwalshi/status/1228259484801359872?s=21

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17
statsgeek1 · 14/02/2020 21:47

Reading the legislation wrt the misuse of communications act 2003 it seems apparent if reports in the Mail are to be believed that KS incriminated herself. It looks like during police interview the officers asked her questions with regards to the points to prove to make out the offence and for want of a better word she 'coughed' to them.

  1. That she used a public communications network. She used Twitter that isn't in dispute. In fact she appears to have aggravated this by creating two more accounts after agreeing to avoid contact. Possibly a classic error leading to indisputable intent.
  1. She used the network to cause annoyance or distress. It appears that her tweets were directed (unlike Harry's) and she appears to have admitted in interview that she knew they would 'get at' the complainant. I would say that a reasonable person would say that wanting to 'get at' someone could reasonably be interpreted as an intent to cause anxiety or annoyance.
  1. The message was construed as grossly offensive. Now, I am surprised the solicitor in concern did not chase this particular point. Is 'pig in a wig' or repeated misgendering grossly offensive? If the CPS were unable to prove this then I suspect it would have resulted in a different outcome but, without challenge the assumption must have been that it was grossly offensive.

As much as attacking the complainants history seemed a good ploy the judge was probably interested in this particular event. It would be similar to saying that anybody convicted of a historic of fence should not be allowed recourse to the law. I'm not sure most are really comfortable with that idea. Of course I understand that is not likely to be a prevailing opinion on here with regards to this case.

Support outside although apparently appreciative probably didn't help if reports were right that chants of pig in a wig and he's a man were heard. This may be misreported by the Mail, I don't know? Whatever you think of the complainant imagine substituting that chant for something considered derogatory but factually true about an ethnic minority coupled with a truthful statement about the colour of their skin? Perhaps a bit of an own goal but I'm sure KS liked it though.

As for Harryy, his tweets were lighter and not directed and on the face of it, his intentions were not criminal. Perhaps meant to poke fun at trans people but on the face of it they said more about him than transsexuals as a group. An experienced police officer would have done well to direct him to the Humber where he could easily placate his wish to be a fish and offer him some information about TDOR or invite him to an event to show him it 'is a thing'. The judge was sensible in his judgement though that the officer in concern over stepped the mark (probably through inexperience) and that we are not in a repeat of 1984. Of course he was also right to deny Harry the bigger prize of ripping up COP guidelines. The implications of that have far greater reach than trans people and the likely recognition that this could open the gates to open season on all minorities with a stated case to support decisions in this manner.

I don't personally see Harry getting anywhere with an appeal for this reason however if KS has a solicitor who argues what is grossly offensive successfully an appeal may work on a technicality. Due to her coughing in interview denial of the actions themselves are not in my opinion plausible. Also I don't think there will be much recourse as to an unusually strong punishment as a very small fine and costs is probably at the lower end of the scale.

It's all only an opinion but to me at least it makes sense of today's respective judgements.

Dolorabelle · 14/02/2020 21:46

Let's just consider whom we are asked to 'be kind' to: a serial litigator that is known to have appeared in Court at least 11 times to defend self from 20+ criminal charges, including fraud, and deception, and violent affray (assault with a golf club)*

And made jokes about being bear Ms Scottow's home playing golf.

I wonder if it's a case of Freud-style neurosis or projection. People overreact to the very things that they don't wish to admit are true about themselves. And they project this self-hatred outwards onto others, accusing others of the very thing they fear about themselves.

You know, like the 1980s television evangelists who preached family values, predicted hellfire and damnation on gay people, and ten were found paying male prostitutes.

Hypocrisy.

BoreOfWhabylon · 14/02/2020 21:41

Yes, and I'm glad of the outcome - not just in relation to this particular discussion, but in relation to harassment on SM in general. I can take it, but I worry about the younger generation.

If you want to see harassment on SM, I suggest you have a look at Hayden and creepy sidekick Harrop's output, especially in relation to Caroline Farrow.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 14/02/2020 21:40

It's grimly fascinating to see the misogynistic urge to punish women for failing to submit getting such an open airing. No surprises in terms of who feels that way though.

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2020 21:40

I hate being told to die terf

I hate being told kill the terfs.

I hate that stuff.

Am probs guilty of hate crime

LangClegsInSpace · 14/02/2020 21:39

I've learnt that Stephanie Hayden has been before criminal courts on 11 occasions for 21 offences, and has spent six months in prison for obtaining property by deception.

littlbrowndog · 14/02/2020 21:38

Yeah Sharon it’s a shocker.

I particularly hate rape threats and that I should die in a grease fire

I hate being told I might get sexually assaulted by a baseball bat

All the fun of being a woman on SM

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 14/02/2020 21:35

The idea that anyone should go to jail for upsetting someone else on the internet is an absolute disgrace. The sentence being suspended in a particular case is obviously good for the person involved but does not in any way lessen how sinister it is that they could be sent to jail. For upsetting someone. And I'd say that even if the person demanding that their being upset result in legal consequences in this case wasn't sporting more red flags than an entire parade full of bunting.

Amalfimamma · 14/02/2020 21:34

Kate did not set up multiple accounts to harass hayden.

The judgment even states that it doesn't matter if hayden wasn't tagged in or the object of the tweets.

People really should read judgements before professing to know it all.

Michelleoftheresistance · 14/02/2020 21:34

Anyone human wouldn't like that.

Caroline Farrow certainly doesn't. Odd how the complainant has no problem with doing this to others, only with it happening to them. It's an excellent reason why judges shouldn't be spending their time and huge amounts of tax payer money regulating playground spats on Twitter.

LangClegsInSpace · 14/02/2020 21:33

The other area that needs looking at is the actions of the police in Kate's case.

From arresting her in front of her children, through detaining her for hours while she was lactating and menstruating and what appears to be a complete failure to meet both her sex-based needs and the best interests of her breastfed child, through interviewing her without legal representation and relying on that interview as evidence while conveniently losing the tape, to presenting Kate's tweets without reference to the context of Hayden's doxxing and harassment.

Shit stinks.

NoSharon · 14/02/2020 21:33

Yes, and I'm glad of the outcome - not just in relation to this particular discussion, but in relation to harassment on SM in general. I can take it, but I worry about the younger generation.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 21:32

We've all learnt a lot about Stephanie Hayden

I've learnt she doesn't take shit from people abusing her online.
Which is fair enough, albeit I can see the eeek factor too as seems a bit draconian.

WotchaTalkinBoutWillis · 14/02/2020 21:29

A judge has found her guilty of the crime ergo she committed the crime. It was obvious that she had anyway, even to a layman

This. I don't profess to be any kind of expert (I'm really not) but from what I've been reading, she set up multiple accounts and even if the tweets weren't sent directly "at" the person, if it's at an individual being targeted repeatedly on social media that's harassment.
It doesn't have to be sent to you directly, the internet is still open, everyone can see stuff on it.
Even through blocks you'd see screenshot stuff from other people for example.
A comparison would be on here, MN - writing pages about me (well, not me, I'm nobody interesting lol) but you get my drift.
Talking about me, character pulling, discussing me - it'd be upsetting.
Nothing to do with "hurty feelz." Anyone human wouldn't like that.

Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 21:27

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Cascade220 · 14/02/2020 21:25

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littlbrowndog · 14/02/2020 21:25

Sharon

Stop telling me what to and what to think

This is not your job to police me

As an adult I can manage that without your uninvited help.

LangClegsInSpace · 14/02/2020 21:24

We've all learnt a lot about Stephanie Hayden.

fuckitywhy · 14/02/2020 21:24

Looking forward to the appeal.

NoSharon · 14/02/2020 21:23

We're discussing Kate here I thought?

FemaleAndLearning · 14/02/2020 21:23

In Hayden's statement on twitter Hayden says at point 6, 'I hope (Scarrow) learns from this experience'.
Which experience, the internet stalking that Hayden did to track Scarrow down?

LangClegsInSpace · 14/02/2020 21:22

I hope a lot of you on here take some cautionary advice from her tale.

I bet you do.

From the Harry Miller judgment:

261.Warning the Claimant that in unspecified circumstances he might find himself being prosecuted for exercising his right to freedom of expression on Twitter had the capacity to impede and deter him from expressing himself on transgender issues. In other words, the police’s actions, taken as a whole, had a chilling effecton his right to freedom of expression. That is an interference for the purposes of Article 10(1).

Amalfimamma · 14/02/2020 21:21

No, Sharon.

I'm sure you've oft hear that ergo your username.

Back to aibu as it's the best place for ya

NoSharon · 14/02/2020 21:19

Well apparently it's illegal to do what Kate did, so I hope we've all learned our lesson @SpartacusLangClegicus

Langbannedforsafeguardingkids · 14/02/2020 21:18

Courts sometimes get things wrong - that's why things are overturned on appeal.

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