Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Maya's case, #expelme, my case against Girlguiding and a Court of Precedent!

39 replies

KatieAlcock · 12/02/2020 11:40

Bear with me as I'm very much not a legal expert and I really hope that my solicitor isn't going to tell me I've written something wrong! This is an update on my case against Girlguiding for expelling me (see what I did there) for my beliefs that men and boys cannot change into girls and women.

Wheels turning slowly in the background

I've been waiting... and waiting... and waiting to be able to give you all an update. I can finally tell you something but it's still not a finished story!

Maya Forstater, who has been appealing her dismissal on grounds of her gender critical beliefs, lost her case against her employers but has now lodged an appeal (Mumnet link rather than her funding link for safety's sake: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3805218-Maya-appealing )

You probably don't know the ins and outs but the Employment Tribunal is not what's called a "binding precedent" - another court can independently come to a different decision. So, though this decision is indicative, it's not binding over the court my case would be held in.

After Maya lost her case, Girlguiding told us that since my belief case is so similar to hers, we should withdraw my case. We declined to do so; because Maya is appealing her appeal will be held in a higher court than my case. This means that if Maya's appeal is successful, it is binding to the court that my case would be held in.

Confused? I am as well but Maya's appeal is really hopeful both for her obviously, but also for my case.

This is going to be a long haul, though. Maya's appeal is some way off and we can't make any firm plans for my case till after that. Please share, Tweet, anything you can think of - please do use the hashtag #expelme

I have also asked again if Girlguiding will allow me to accompany my daughter to meetings, outings and sleepovers, and they have again not made any concession. This is massively disappointing to me and to my daughter, and is obviously extremely hard to explain to her and to her friends and their parents.

As an aside it was SO GOOD to meet so many of you at the WPUK meeting, including some current and former Guiding people.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 13/02/2020 13:41

Just for your information Kate. 😁

The number 13 is considered unlucky in the western world, but not so in Chinese. Quite the opposite, the number 13 is considered lucky by the Chinese people. ... If the sound of a particular number is associated with a happy, positive word, it is considered lucky, and the opposite is also true.

So it’s doubly important for you to win this, so we can all think of 13 as a lucky number. 😁

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 13/02/2020 12:02

Thank you all for your lovely words.

I'm looking forward to 13 which is not such an unlucky number, I don't think.

OP posts:
HandsOffMyLangCleg · 12/02/2020 22:38

Thank you. I am inspired by all the brave women and girls who are taking these cases to court.

How the sunlight breaks through.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 12/02/2020 22:31

Thanks for the update Kate and Thank You for persevering.

We need you to win. I can't believe I'm praying to a god I don't believe in, to make a court agree with something that is based in science.

The world is mad.

terfsandwich · 12/02/2020 22:24

Yes you should write to the Queen! Sometimes the Tsar would respond to personal appeals from Russian peasants so there is a precedent.

On a more serious note, what you are doing is so brave (and stunning!) well done for standing up for girls.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2020 20:49

Well done Katie, and good luck Thanks

VortexofBloggery · 12/02/2020 19:26

Thanks for standing up to this, Katie. Bringing a case against an employer / organisation is so stressful and all consuming, you are brave and absolutely doing the right thing.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 12/02/2020 18:47

Well done, and thank you, Katie. Hoping by the time my wee Rainbow gets to Guides, all of this will be a murky part of the past. Your efforts are very much appreciated.

wellbehavedwomen · 12/02/2020 18:35

Thank you so much for this. We need women brave enough to put their heads above the parapet if women are to have a hope in hell of retaining our rights. More grateful and admiring than I have words to convey.

MacaroonMama · 12/02/2020 18:33

Good luck with this.

Also - that medium article on children's understanding of sex is great, Katie, and thanks for sharing it, GrinitchSpinach.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 12/02/2020 18:27

Thank you for the update & THANK YOU Flowers

My daughters will not be GGs until I can be assured that GG understand safeguarding

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 12/02/2020 18:24

That is basically it @manderley, including the waiting.
The courts would probably hear my case now but the legal eagles think it's better to wait.

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 12/02/2020 17:32

Well done Katie! & thank you for doing this.

Do you mean that you have to wait for maya's appeal until your case can be heard? Even though you both describe yourselves as gcf's your your statements of belief won't be exactly the same, so isnt it possible that yours would be judged to meet the criteria even if maya's fails or vice versa? Is it the courts or your own legal team who have said that your case should follow maya's (if I have understood that right)?

I will dig again soon...

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 12/02/2020 15:04

Oh yes indeed, as well as those who don't have a protected characteristic (victims of sexual assault for example, or girls who are in foster care and whose social worker says they must not share accommodation with a male) but who are still vulnerable.

OP posts:
Michelleoftheresistance · 12/02/2020 14:50

And people with disabilities who also cannot.

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 12/02/2020 14:33

I think I posted ages ago commenting that I found it interesting (I was a bit dubious?) that the 'protected belief' was the argument you were going for.
It's not precisely the same, but as you'll have since realised, there's no such thing as discrimination against someone for a protected "fact".
But of course those with other beliefs (Muslim, Hindu, religious Christians and Jews) are also being discriminated against if they cannot share sleeping and changing spaces with those with male bodies.

OP posts:
Procrastinator2 · 12/02/2020 14:14

Katie, sorry, didn't realise you had already started court proceedings.

popehilarious · 12/02/2020 14:14

I think I posted ages ago commenting that I found it interesting (I was a bit dubious?) that the 'protected belief' was the argument you were going for. Maya's case has certainly clarified that argument (which I can now see has plenty of merit), and has forced a judge to state that believing that sex is immutable and unchangeable is "not worthy of respect in a democratic society".

V best of luck.

Beamur · 12/02/2020 14:10

Watching this with interest.
It's a very important area that really needs the judgement of a few court cases to set precedent.

Michelleoftheresistance · 12/02/2020 14:00

Katie, you're one of my growing list of heroines/female role models.

So many brilliant women standing up and showing what women are capable of. Flowers Very best of luck with this.

Mockersisrightasusual · 12/02/2020 13:56

Tracey Brabin backs the Girl Guides:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000f94q/politics-live-12022020

(Go to 1hr 44m)

Original poster
KatieAlcock · 12/02/2020 13:47

Procrastinator the issues aren't exactly the same, though there's no disability issue. I was discriminated against when I raised concerns about the treatment of individuals with a protected characteristic (a variety of characteristics, actually) so there's also a whistleblowing element.

GG can invite us to withdraw at any stage, and we can decline to do so. I'm not completely sure if the County Court (where my case is) can tell me I'm out of time, though.

Jessica I don't think that's a matter of public record, sorry.

OP posts:
JessicaLangoustine · 12/02/2020 13:39

Who are GirlGuiding using for legal representation, Katie?

Procrastinator2 · 12/02/2020 13:34

Katie, thank you for carrying on, this is a lot to take on. I know you have legal advice. Are the issues in Maya's case exactly the same as yours? Is there an element of discrimination on disability in yours as well?

I hope Maya's case doesn't go all the way to the Supreme Court, but if it does will you run out of time on yours?

From a selfish, non legal point of view I would like to see this ideology challenged in many different areas as possible, if you need more digging now, let us know.

If any boys want to challenge GGs on the ground of discrimination happy to dig for that too.

ThinEndoftheWedge · 12/02/2020 13:06

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Swipe left for the next trending thread