Helen Joyce interviewed by Benjamin Boyce: Gender, Journalism and Justice

Just bumping this in light of some of the Moral Maze 'definitions' as something Helen Joyce said has stayed with me. [I am greatly paraphrasing here!]:The reason people don't often question "definitions" such as "a woman is anyone who feels like a woman" or point out the glaring circularity is because - we all know instinctively what a woman is, so we have that external frame of reference.

"A woman is anyone who feels like a woman" etc would be more obviously seen as nonsense if 'what a woman is' was genuinely unclear.

Wow! Helen's credentials made me swoon a bit!

She's excellent.

Not sure if posted here yet - but this might be the article Helen is referring too - women as supporting actors in their own world to transwomen

*At nearly 6ft she stands out among her team-mates, and club captain Jessica Minty-Madley recounts a time she folded an opponent "like a deckchair".

"I do feel guilty, but what can you do?" she says. "I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby."

He can't resist a joke, though, adding: "She's going to be a good, good player for the next few years, as long as we can stop her injuring players in training*

Heartwarming tale of inclusivity with three mentions/jokes of injuries/potential causes of harm to women in just one article.

Welsh RFU - supposedly committed to safety and fairness

Who wants their daughters to play rugby??!

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/49298550?__twitter_impression=true

Wow, Helen Joyce is amazing in that interview. I hadn't heard of her before and am looking forward to catching up.

Helen Joyce is wonderful. Fiercely intelligent and takes no prisoners. Some of her writing around these issues is here, for anyone who's not read it, and would like to.

Thank you for the links - will watch them this evening.

Ben and other trans boys were the lowest caste in their trans community. The highest caste were the substantially older trans women who constantly told them to check their privilege, to be quiet, and to listen when trans women spoke.

That's interesting. The transman I know talks a lot about that transition equalling the assumption of male privilege, and that every transman needs to be mindful of and responsible about that. I just sit there and think - actually, the study I read a few years ago (and my own child's NHS senior clinical psych) says transboys are at the toxic intersection of genuine transphobia and misogyny, vulnerable to abuse from all sides, and far more vulnerable to rape and sexual assault than transwomen, and even non-transitioned women and girls. Because predatory males don't see them as men, and misogynists see them as threatening gender norms and are therefore triggered. And yet adherence to gender ideology means, of course, that middle aged males get to tell these young females to shut up, sit at their feet, and listen to them hold forth, because feminism! Privilege! Oppression!

Yes indeed, these females retain the right to remain silent post their 'transition'. What a brave new world.

It’s really good. I will likely watch it again.

Let’s hope she gets the book written and then gets to do the entire circuit of press promotions.

She’s brilliant and exactly who we need to lead what I am now calling ‘operation stop sterilising gay kids’.

This is Boyce's best interview to date. Helen Joyce, you should be all over mainstream media! I'd love to see idiots like Victoria Derbyshire deal with your clear and logical reasoning and your deep concern for the effect this quasi religious movement is having on children. Can't wait for your book.

I thought the point Helen makes towards the end, about all these institutions like Stonewall and the ACLU trading on a good name, but actually doing the exact opposite of what they originally formed to do, was really important. So, Stonewall is actively homophobic in its current guise. This point really needs to be hammered home to the masses, because the uninitiated see women standing up to Stonewall and assume that "right" (compassion, tolerance, fair play etc) must be on the side of the former, and it's hard to argue against their history. Boyce says that these organisations are now "manned by people who are expending the accumulated authority and not generating anything more." I would include the BBC and the Guardian, both riding on the coat-tails of their respective impressive histories, but very much sullied in their current guises by their agenda pushing, shutting down of free, fair and equal speech to all sides, and their own nasty little cover-ups like Saville.

Listened to the podcast on my way to work this morning and WOW!

She nailed it. I have to confess, I haven’t come across Helen Joyce before, and honestly feel that my life would have been a wee bit richer if I had! So wish I had managed to get to the conference to hear her live.

She’s clear, calm, authoritative, charming, factual, gets to the heart of each point she makes with a few words. Loved it.

I also now have “they’re sterilising gay kids” echoing round in my head.

Her book is going to be a cracker.

I agree with pp that Boyce can be a bit too dismissive, but the Evergreen connection explains a lot.
I think it's great that he does these long interviews, but if anyone who is new to this doesn't have the time to listen to the interview, Helen Joyce covers a lot of the issues in this excellent article

standpointmag.co.uk/issues/february-2020/speaking-up-for-female-eunuchs/

The first of those additional interviews, the one with GNC Ben, was educational and disturbing. It covers a wide range of issues and the thread that runs through it it the lack of safeguarding and the sense of sex castes (as Sheila Jeffreys terms it) than meant Ben and other trans boys were the lowest caste in their trans community. The highest caste were the substantially older trans women who constantly told them to check their privilege, to be quiet, and to listen when trans women spoke.

Yes, very disturbing.
I had somehow missed the fact that Ben had come into contact with that Stonewall cotton ceiling person?!

Charlie Evans (of DetransAdNet) has also tweeted about her experience with an AGP.
mobile.twitter.com/charlie_sci/status/1226704893848825856

It enrages me that the establishment, including the BBC, always side with these men.

She’s so good!

I like her description of our position as ‘materialist feminism’.

This was great. I sometimes think I'm just going to hear everything I already know, but there was a lot more food for thought here and the points I already 'know' are condensed down very sharply.

I really enjoyed the interviews with Ben, and some of the others, too. Not listened to the one with Helen yet(I listen to the podcast rather than watch on YouTube), but placemarking on this thread to remind me to come back to discuss when I have.

The first of those additional interviews, the one with GNC Ben, was educational and disturbing. It covers a wide range of issues and the thread that runs through it it the lack of safeguarding and the sense of sex castes (as Sheila Jeffreys terms it) than meant Ben and other trans boys were the lowest caste in their trans community. The highest caste were the substantially older trans women who constantly told them to check their privilege, to be quiet, and to listen when trans women spoke.

I haven't seen the others as yet. I'm not sure that saying, "I look forward to them" is appropriate but I'm certain that I'll learn something.

Interview on "Coercion & Abuse in the Gender ID Community" with Ben, a bright and warm young Canadian woman recently re-identified with her sex. Morgan Page, facilitator of the "Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling" workshop in Toronto and currently affiliated with Stonewall in the UK, was the adult male running the trans group Ben attended as a young female teenager:

"What the Hormones Didn't Change," a recent interview with Watson, an extremely thoughtful Scottish female detransitioner:

"The Hormone Health Crisis" with Will Malone, an Idaho endocrinologist:

Thanks for posting. Great interview. Everyone needs to watch this

Very impressed with Helen Joyce she's such a clear articulate speaker but warm as well. Looking forward to her book.

Really enjoyed this, Helen is very clear and no nonsense which I like.

Although I have a lot of time for BB, I agree with pp that he doesn't always "get it" - however he has great guests and I've very much enjoyed many of his previous interviews , two with Jane Clare Jones in particular.

Just finished watching it in bits (toddlers, who'd have 'em), She has always been a clear and concise voice in this debate, and she smashes this perfectly!

It's a really good interview- particularly pleased to see Helen mention trans widows as one of the groups whose voices are not considered by those seeking "diversity".

Thanks for the link - not watched it yet but I think Helen Joyce is great.

Thanks! Oddly enough I'd just started watching the Evergreen YouTube vids - not got to the last part yet.

He’s an American who was a mature student at Evergreen State College when students there... how to describe it? Revolted against professors and administrators, held them hostage and enforced a kind of struggle session focused on racial and other social justice issues. I am not an expert on those events at all.

Boyce has a YouTube channel with many videos about Evergreen, but he has also become interested in gender identity ideology over the past few years. He has interviewed many detransitioners (his interview with Ben/ GNCCentric is a must-watch but they’re all very good), some doctors and a few feminists.

He considers himself a centrist and is very anti- identity politics. I find him frustrating sometimes because he sometimes classes as “identity politics” what I would consider legitimate, specific grievances of the groups in question, whether women or racial minorities.

Despite that, he’s often a very good interviewer. He usually gives his subjects plenty of time to speak without interruption. I find him particularly sensitive with and respectful of the detransitioners.

I’ll come back later with a couple of links to his better videos.

I am going to watch this although it's hard for me to find the opportunity to watch videos instead of reading an article!

Can someone give me a quick rundown on who Benjamin Boyce is?

That made a good start to my week. Thanks OP.